Monday, October 20, 2008

3rd hour Fahrenheit 451 Liveblog Discussion pgs 40-68

78 comments:

HaileyJ said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Brian A said...

they cant remember because they dont truly care about each other as much as they would like to think, so its not important enough to be remembered.

anishp said...

Mildred can't remember how they met because she doesn't want to remember how they met. She obviously doesn't care about Montag, and it seems that their marriage was arranged and they didn't love each other.

mmoritz said...

Remember to you punctuation, CAPITALIZATION< etc.

morganh said...

I think Mildred doesn't like to live in reality and she likes to pretend that her life is happier than it really is. She lives the life she wants through her parlor walls.

HaileyJ said...

I agree with brian. i think that f their relatioanship was stronger than it would have mattered more to them. They dont truly love each other,so this is just a blurr.

JillianG said...

They wouldn't remember how they met because it was nothing special. That's normal. You cannot expect every moment to be special, and therefore remember it. It was probably just some mundane thing like having a mutual friend. The only reason he would have to remember is if it were particularly odd, like saving her from certain death.
Additionally, when you meet a person you don't expect to get married right off the bat. You have no reason to believe you will.

mmoritz said...

First names are capitalized.

Elaine's Blog said...

I agree with Anish by the fact that Mildred obviously doesn't care about Montag and how they can't remember how they met. I agree with Morgan how she doesn't live in reality and she likes to pretend things. To make sure that things are so happy and perfect, she watches TV to make her life seem so great. Since she watched so much tv, she deepened herself with her tv family.. thoughts?

bryce said...

Anish, I agree with you that they don't love each other, but if she didn't even care or like Montag at all then she wouldn't be living with him.

tim2012 said...

The world may be coming to this. Everyone seems to go to these dating websites. I read something a while ago and it said something like 40 % of people who marry each year are married online. They probably remember where they meet, but this could over time transform into some place where people are assigned to each other and they would just be put together, not even knowing anyhting about the other person, or about where they met.

JillianG said...

Y'all are over analysing this, just like Montag. Not remembering how they met is no reason to panic. There is no deeper reason having to do with how much they care. They simply didn't think much of it at the time.

mmoritz said...

Jillian--I disagree.
I can absolutely tell you the moment I met my husband. I can tell you what we were both doing, what we were both wearing, the things we said. I think you will always remember you meet the love of your life. So what does that say about Mildred and Montag?

Blakes said...

i also agree with brian and hailey, with that their relationship isnt strong enough to remember the details. But i think that if they wanted to, they could improve their relationship and maybe remember some of these things. Both of them though dont care enough to try to fix their relationship and are too cought up in their own lives to do anything about it.

Elaine's Blog said...

I agree with Hailey to her agreeance to Brian. If Montag and Mildred truly did love each other, than they would suffer with each other through everything. I agree with what Alex is saying right now how Montag said that he himself is not happy and how Mildred said that she was happy and proud of it. Near the end of the first section, Montag opens up and says that they both live in this house together and that they must survive and suffer together. He gave her possibly everything that she wanted and she didn't think that he was considering her. Now, he needs her to consider him and what mess they need to clean up that his hands has caused.

morganh said...

Happiness in the book is like artificial happiness. They believe what the government wants them to believe, so the government basically controls them. I als agree that the people find happiness through t.v. and things like that. No one really is happy though, they don't understand what it is. They all just go to fast to ever really enjoy anything.

HaileyJ said...

Alright moving off of the Mildred topic. I belive that happiness means something to each individual character. Mildred is happy with her family and her t.v. sets. But then Montag is happy when he is with Clarisse and he knows that he is not happy with Mildred. Beatty is happy with burning the books and doing his job. In my opinion each character has a definition for being happy.

JillianG said...

Ms.Moritz, well, I suppose you're right. But marrying someone who is NOT the love of your life is not out of the ordinary, but that doesn't mean you cna't be happy. Very few seem to find the love of their life.
Also, a great deal of fine relationships can be born from freindship. I'm good friends with Jon, but I certainly don't remember meeting him.

Elaine's Blog said...

I agree with Tim about how we as people don't really go out there and meet people to find their "perfect match." Yes, if they meet online, they will remember that they met this guy/girl online and she was from Canada. Cool. But almost every couple that marries online tends to get in an argument and gets a divorce. And also when people meet online, how do they know that they are truly happy with a person?

Brian A said...

Jillian, most people can remember when they met their spouse. They don't always assign it special importance at first, but once they are officially a couple the place they met becomes important to them and they remember it. when youre married that is reinforced, because you gety married when you want to spend yyoure entire life with one personn, so every memory of them is precious, especially when you met them, because they change your life and you want to remember it.

morganh said...

p.s. I think it's really sad that those to don't remember how they met. That's really obnoxious, and how are they still together. It's probly easier that Mildred is totally disconected to everything. It doesn't seen like Montag is home that much either. Apparently love isn't important and they just take everything for granted. So yeah.

anishp said...

I agree with Brain's thought that they don't actually care about each other because their relationship is not based off of support and strength. They don't really connect because they can't communicate properly with each other.

My question is:

Does Bradbury foreshadow our world with a future of no love at all?

bryce said...

Morgan, I agree with you about the government controling people. That reminds me of Harrison Bergeron and The Pedestrian.

morganh said...

Yeah it reminds me of that too. Good job Bryce!

Elaine's Blog said...

I agree with Brian about how precious memories are and how people will remember things that are important in which who they connect with the most important. To possibly answer Anish's question, I think that Bradbury is forshawdowing how dangerous technology can change a relationship. thoughts?

Blakes said...

i agree with morgan, that everyone goes too fast to enjoy life. most people are just living in the moment, like with mildred and her tv. She only waits for that tv showto happen. Clarrise however learned to slow down and actually think. SHe walks alot and vthat is what makes her happy, and it looks like that is what now makes Montag happy. All he thinks about almost is clarisse and the things she says, and is devastated when she is gone.

anishp said...

Brians

HaileyJ said...

I think that in this world today, love has many meanings. it is over used and sometimes the true meaning is losing its importance. In this novel, loving something could be used more than just another word. I think that it means something way more than just another word. We see this word used not very much in the book. It means more to these characters than it does to us in the context of using the word in an almost sacred way.

tim2012 said...

It just depends. In this time period, people don't have to may odd encounters because of the government controlling society. This means that Montag and Mildred probably met in a ordinary setting.

JillianG said...

I disagree with Cali in that the word love loses meaning when we express our devotion towrds pizza. Hopefully, we will be able to detect the meaning in how the person says it. For example: all through my day I use "I love you" as a sort of thank you. Like, a person and theatre will teach me how to use a handsaw the proper way I'll probalby say (depending on the person_) "I love you, _____" with a hint of sarcasm and gratitude. By saying that I am in no way saying "I want to spend the rest of my life with you and have your babies" I am saying I am grateful for you and you make me haappy, as opposed to real "Love" as we understand it.

Elaine's Blog said...

I also agree with Morgan and Blake how the society in Fahrentheit 451 is a fast moving society that almost empties the soul and doens't let the people of that society take in every moment of their life that they live. Clarisse, on the other hand, takes everything in and tries to teach Montag about how great life possibly is when you take it slow. thoughts?

morganh said...

I agree with Hailey J. that in the society in this book, love is just another word, and it's kinda doing that in our society today.

Brian A said...

Elaine, i believe that technology can make or break a relationship. if both people are into it then it is good and they won't be seperated by it, but if you are like Montag, then you aren't into tech stuff as much and if you're significannt other is then there will be a wall between you, but the size of it depends on other things.

bryce said...

Elaine, I agree with you that Bradbury is trying to tell us that technology can change a relationship. I have a question though, do you think that today's technology is hurting or helping us or both?

Elaine's Blog said...

Brian, do you think that technology broke the possibly could have strong relationship between Montag and Mildred? Because Mildred was so lost in her family and getting a fourth wall even though they just got the third wall 2 months ago... thoughts?

HaileyJ said...

Anish to answer your question, i think that this book is showing that people have been relying too much on what others are telling them. If someone tells them too jump and they are in the government, they sayt how high. So i think with the "love" idea, that you can tell someone that you love them and that they can believe you, but then the real idea to think about is what is love? What does it mean? This true love can totally disappear.

JillianG said...

I agre with Brian in that it depend on the couple wheather or not it helps or hurts the relationship. In 451 land there are probably many couples that are held together by the TV programs because they both enjoy it.

Brian A said...

yes, Elaine, i believe it is possible. it could be that Mildred did love Montag she devoted more and more of herself to the TV-walls and slowly drew away from Montag until they were just legally married, not emotionally or mentally.

morganh said...

I think Jack is making a really good poiny wiith the kids in Islam and the kids in Farenheight 451.

Blakes said...

Someone was talking about the wine in funnels. How does clarisse know what wine tastes like opposed to wine? And she says that rain tastes like wine. Maybe she is an underage drinker and she was drunk one night and maybe, she walked out in front of a car one day and was killed. but maybe that drinking is what keeps her happy, and different from everyone else. But coming back to that they are told that the water is wine, maybe clarisse is the only one that really knows what wine is.

haleyp said...

Hailey J.
I don't think that in this situtation, true love was lost. I don't think there was true love between Mildred and Montag in the first place. We know they're married, but we know nothing of the circumstances that caused their marriage. For all we know, the same corrupt government that burns these books, could be the ones matching up and marrying couples. They could be complete strangers!

Elaine's Blog said...

Bryce, I think that technology is both hurting and helping. Technology helps todays society because we can do things that are beyond the human power to do, such as blogging and also talking in the inner circle. However, if you are talking about a relationship, no matter if it is a friend or love, than it could be hurting. Hurting because than the friends don't hang out together every so often. Technology may help because than you could talk online. This also goes back to Tim's thought about how people meet online. People find happiness through different sources, and match.com could possibly be a sourde that could make people happy... thoughts?

HaileyJ said...

Jillian i do not think that a T.V. set is the only reason that two people could have been brought together. Yes they can both love
( and there is that word again) to watch t.v. But for 451, i think that there is something else that has an affect on two people falling in "love".

bryce said...

Like Cali was saying in the circle, children in Islamic countries and children in Fahrenheit 451 are being brainwashed and told what to do. The government has complete control over both of them.

anishp said...

I agree with Hailey about love. It is one thing to tell someone you love them, and another thing to show you love them. In the story, love is a rare thing. "Fun" in Fahrenheit 451 is doing physical activities, but the rare, unfun things are knowledge, love, and happiness in a relationship. Maybe Montag and Mildred don't love each other because they don't know enough about each other and they have a lot to learn about love in a relationship.

haleyp said...

Blake,
I don't think that Clariesse is an underage drinker. I think that any person could tell the taste of wine, without actually having tasting it. Along with the fact, that when she is happy, and when she isn't like the other people, she seems totally sane. She doesn't say completely obscure things. They might be obscure to this community, but definantlly not the words of a drunkard.

tim2012 said...

If you challenge the system in this society, you will be sent of to an insane asylum and eventually killed. When someone challenges the system, it is a loosing battle because the rest of society allows the government to tell them what to and will ignore you, which is why many people don't even try to challenge it.

JillianG said...

Blake, in no way does Bradbury mean Clarisse is a drunkard. It is a metaphor meaning wine as the sweet nector of life, as the ancients and Europeans see it as. Not as a cloud of intoxication over one's eyes.
Besides, plenty of nonalcholics know what wine tastes like. My mum has some from time to time and once let my taste a bit off my finger. I thought it was nasty. But I still understand the metaphor.

HaileyJ said...

Blake, when Clarisse speaks of wine, does she really mean the literal drink wine,or something else that she has come to see? What else in this contex could "wine" mean?

Elaine's Blog said...

I agree with Haley Pierson about how Clarisse seemed and acted totally sane and that she could not have possibly been a drunkard. To go with the inner circle converstaion, how do you think Clarisse died? Did she possibly die when she was walking and taking in nature? Or is it possible that the Mechanical Hound came and hunted her down to kill her (which I doubt)?

morganh said...

If alot of people started to find books. I think that people might like them. At first people might just keep it on the down low about reading books. But books educate people, so the people that were reading the books might start to question the way things are done. They might spread it around to abunch of people. Then that might start a whole overthrow of the current government.

Brian A said...

I doubt that Clarisse would kill herself. She seems happy. thats what makes her unique. she is actually content.

bryce said...

Elaine, I defintely agree with you about technology. Also, Tim I agree with you about challenging the system. That is why the government has complete control in 451. Everybody is afraid to challenge it.

anishp said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
HaileyJ said...

Elaine, im thinking not so much about the Hound being the reason for her death. However i do believe that Clarisse was doing something that she had adored. What way could she have died that would have meant something
meaningful to Montag or the plot? Possibly trying to save some books?

JillianG said...

Hailey J, consider what people are like in 451 land. There is little more in the world to them appart from personal satisfaction. Having the same taste in programs and food may be enough to innitiate love.

Elaine's Blog said...

I agree with Tim about how it is a loosing battle to challenge society. But does that mean there is such thing as an utopia society? There is always someone or a group of people who will plot to disrupt the perfect society that people like Beatty are trying to keep perfect... thoughts?

haleyp said...

Like their talking about in the circle, I don't agree with the statement that Clariesse might of killed herself or that her death was a simple death that getting run over was all there was to it. Why would Ray Bradbury end such an influential character's death so simply. Her death has a good possibility of being caused by the government. It would show that the government is keeping their people from all things that let them think,challenge the system, and do something out of the ordinary. We might not ever know her death, but one can assume it's an order of the government to keep people the same and no differnt than another.

morganh said...

I agree with Anish about the whole Harrison Bergeron and Farenheight 451 connection thing.

Blakes said...

AAron talked about the mechanical hound sniffing out certain aMINO ACIDS. Maybe it attacked clarisse because it knew her amino acids were working in a different way than everyone else, and in a thinking and intellectual way. The hound als odoesnt like montag because he is starting to think this way.

HaileyJ said...

Alrighty jillian. So what was the reason for bring Montag and Mildrid together? The love of burning books? They seem to have nada in commen.

tim2012 said...

I think the government killed her in some way. Montag didn't see her after she went to her doctor. The government obviously knew she was weird because they made her go to the doctor, so they probably killed her on purpose. This is for two reasons. One, it could be an example to others who are "wierd," and two to get rid of someone who challenges the system.

bryce said...

Anish, that's a great connection. Hailey, I think Clarisse was run over by a car like Beatty said. They just killed her because she was starting to challenge the system.

Brian A said...

The hound at the firehouse growled at Montag, and he said for it to do that someone would have to set it to be suspicious of him. We also know Beatty is suspicious of him. Could Beatty have set the dog on him to scare him away from the books?did someone else? who? why?

anishp said...

When someone in the discussion circle talked about Harrison Bergeron, his parents in Harrison Bergeron forgeting that Harrison died is like Mildred forgetting how she and Montag met. Just a connection I had.

I have a question to pose:

Is Beatty a friend or enemy of Montag?

By the way, this comment is a repost of one earlier. I just forgot to pose the question, so I deleted my comment.

Elaine's Blog said...

Haley, I agree with you, but Clarisse living was a problem to the government because she was telling Montag things and changing his mind since he was part of the government as a firefighter. Ray Bradbury might have put such an end to the character of Clarisse because possibly he is teaching us a lesson in which we need to go deeper to understand... thoughts?

HaileyJ said...

Ah Bryce good point. Clarisse was challenging the system too much and that people were starting to think like her, or start evaluating her ideas. Good point and i agree with you.

Brian A said...

Blake, amino acids form proteins, not thoghts.

JillianG said...

I believe Clarisse was hit by a car. There was no conspiracy behind it... well, maybe a little. She is a happy person, so it was not suicide. It is an ordinary thing to be struck down when someone runs a red light. She did not see it coming, and did not feel any pain. She died happy and wandering.
Besides all that, keep in mind no one saw the body. Mildred could have been mistaken. As ling as no body is found, we can keep a small hope that she is alive somewhere in the world, wandering, thinking, and reading. ;)

haleyp said...

Anish,
I don't think Beatty is a friend, nor an enemy(yet) of Montag. I think that he is his boss, who checks up on him. He might try to have a personal relationship, but it doesn't appear to be geniune.

Blakes said...

I agree with Cali that the firemen are around the books more. This is going to happen often with firemen, because firemen are frequently around them and have that opportunity to take one. except for a black market, other people arent going to be able to get a hold of books. MAybe firemen want to be different and get curious about what is in the books that they are burning. Beatty must know that it has happened before.

morganh said...

Anish, I think that Beatty is both a friend and enemy of Montag.
He's a friend because in a way he is trying to help him. I also think he is an enemy because he's trying to control what Montag is doing, by like giving him the fireman's rule book. He's a really shadey character.

He's probly more of an enemy than a friend..

JillianG said...

Hailey: We don't knowe. We didn't really know Montag before he stated to mature and grow as a thinker. He may have LOVED the programs as far as we know.

anishp said...

I agree with Haley P and Bryce about the whole government and challenging the system thing with Clarisse. Maybe because she challenged the system, then Montag will want to reinforce her ideas of the past into the future. Maybe Montag will take action and convince the majority of people that they must start to THINK and start to learn, love, and life.

tim2012 said...

Beatty is a friend and enemy of Montag. Montag is in a state of confusion right now. He doesn't know who to follow. Beatty or Clarisse. Both of these characters have been trying to get Montag to come onto their own side. Beatty makes a living at getting people to follow the government and the goverment knows that people like clarisse try to get the people in a state of confusion onto their side. So what does the government do, kill Clarrise.

Elaine's Blog said...

I agree with Tim about how Montag never saw Clarisse after her seeing the doctor and her death could have been there. To answer Brian's question, I think that Beatty set the Hound as his chemical complex and he was warning Montag in every way, including when he went to his house. To answer Anish's answer, I think that Beatty is a friend because he is trying to warn him, but also an enemy because of how he might have set the Hound as Montag's chemical compound.. thoughts?

Brian A said...

i think Beatty is just checking up on Montag because it is his job.

kylees said...

On the issue of Mildred and Montag not being able to remember where they met, I agree with both sides. Sure there are plenty of people who remember the exact moment like Mrs. Moritz, but there are plenty other couples that knew each other long before they ever dated or anything, so they do not remember exactly their first encounter.

I do not think they are in love anymore. I think they used to be though. We saw some concern come through from Montag when Mildred had the incident with the sleeping pills. So it seems like they once cared more for each other.

Technology seems to have torn them apart though. At least from Mildred's end. The people on the parlor screens are her family now, and she always has the Seashells in her ears, making it very hard for Montag to ever communicate with her. Today we are already seeing a lot of that. Although technology helps us to stay in touch with the world, in a lot of cases it distracts us from those right next to us. We are always talking on the phone and texting or plugged into our Ipods etc. We don't communicate as much with those who are actually around us. to answer Anish's question, I do think that it will cause problems in the future between couples and their love for each other. I'm sure there will still be some love though.

I do believe that Clarisse was hit by a car, but it was a total accident. Because if the government felt that she was such a threat,then wouldn't the rest of her family have been a threat too and also killed?