Tuesday, October 28, 2008

4th hour Fahrenheit 451 Liveblog Discussion pgs 110-130

119 comments:

ThomasL said...

I think that when things burn people find amusement so it's sort of like a carnival for Montag's neighborhood when things burn.

nicoles said...

I think that they refer to it as a carnival because of the bright colors, and the general atmosphere. Although carnivals tend to be more fun situations other than the burning of a neighborhood. But, it was enjoyable for Beatty to watch.

Bronson said...

I think the definiton of a carnival is something that atrracts a lot of people and provdies enjoyment. It also provides a sense of coming together within a community.

Paulh said...

He refers to it as a carnival because everything in this country is entertainment. Even death and sadness is entertainment to some people. The kids will drive over people and kill them, in their free time.

AHOLMES! said...

Good question molly! i think that its kind of like entertainment to the public and to the neighbors because people find other peoples pain kind of enjoyable at times. its like Everyone will remember when your wrong, but no one will remember when your right. they like to watch the bad aspect of things sometimes.

KyleC said...

I agree with Thomas. Most people like watching things being destroyed. It is just the nature of people

PaulF said...

I think that it is refered to a carnival becasue of all the mayhem surrounding it. The house is burned down and Beatty is dead, so the current situation is very chaotic.

Another possible reason is that people flock to the site of Montag's house to see the damage. This is like a carnival where Montag's house if the main attraction

connors said...

The society they live in has no real entertainment, so when he is referring to a canival i think they have a different deffintion than we do. To them a carnival might be something unusuall or something that just catches your breath. It doesn't have to be clowns and elephants and really wierd people.

nicoles said...

I think that the neighbors came out to watch the burning of Montag's home and found it interesting because of the fact that they find it amusing to watch someone who has "broken the law" get in trouble. It is almost as if it makes them feel better about themselves, and that they did not break the law.

ThomasL said...

I agree with Paul, everything in this society is considered entertainment, even violence.

Alex K said...

I think that people refer to this as a carnaval because it is smoe thing that doesn't happen very often, like the carnaval, and it is fun to see. it's like a car accident, it causes people to slow down and look.

Kc P said...

I don't think Montag'a neighbors are entertained by the fire but more curious and nosey. They just want to know what is going on so they have something new to gossip about.

nicoles said...

Mildred lost her family and T.V when she called Montag in. Did she think it was better to follow the law, then to lose her family?

MargoC said...

carnivals are people coming together and just because we frown upon distruction in out society but in their society they do not frown upon disructiong of things buring. Also, the firemen are actualy proud of what they do and other people kind of go with the flow and are alos somewhat proud of the firemen.

PaulF said...

I think that Mildred was going to turn Montag in no matter what he did. As soon as she saw the books she decided to turn him in. Her decision was rushed becasue Montag began reading to her and her friends which scared them deeply.

SophiaA said...

I agree that Mildred is afraid to loose her "friends" which are on the tv. She is also probably afraid of where she is going to go and what worse consequences will happen if she didn't turn in the books and got caught anyway.

AHOLMES! said...

I think she was thinking about turning him in the whole time. She is really just a hyocritical person in my perspective cause shes likke Oh yes of course i love you Guy! but then she turns him in to get his house burnt down. She never realized how extreme burnming houses were until it happened to her, its like the saying "Whoever has used to phrase 'easy as taking candy from a baby' has never tried it." cause she assumes that its gonna be ovr and done with.

ThomasL said...

I think that Mildred had probably seen a show on TV about people getting arrested and saw that it wasn't very pleasant so she would rather follow the law.

Bronson said...

I think Mildred was actually along the lines of both. the moment she saw the books she freaked out and was talking about getting arrested. Then when they read the books and she felt that there was nothing in them, solidifying her beliefs. Then when Montag read this "dribble" to her firends and made them very upset and even cry that pushed her over the edge. He also turned off the tv which really upset them, and since the television is a part of Mildred then she must have felt that he chose books over her happiness.

MargoC said...

Jacob said that T.V. and other technology is Mildred world... do you think that bradbury was right are is going to be right in the furture, that technology will become our whole world, or do you think it will never get to that point?

Paulh said...

I agree with Thomas Beatty was tired of what world had come to. He wanted to die and be free of it so he provoked Montag to kill him.

KyleC said...

What do you think happened in Beaty's life? According to jacob

MargoC said...

Jacob said that T.V. and other technology is Mildred world... do you think that bradbury was right are is going to be right in the furture, that technology will become our whole world, or do you think it will never get to that point?

nicoles said...

Beatty almost seems as though he wanted to die so he did not have to deal with this repetitive situation with breaking the law and books. I think he feels strongly about knowledge, and has a passion for it, but doesn't want to live anymore supporting the law, and the ignorance of the society.

ThomasL said...

I agree with Allie about Mildred being a hypocrite... I mean she doesn't even love her own husband so if she leaves him, what's there to lose??

KyleC said...

I understand Beaty feeling betrayed, but why would he feel betrayed about Montag having books when Beaty had read books before?

Alex K said...

I think that Beatty pushed montag to murder because he wanted to see how far he would go, if he would actually kill him. I also agree with Hunter that is is slightly more honorable to be killed than to commit suicide.

connors said...

I think Beatty did not specifically want to die, but was willing to to make a point and show his loyalty to the job. I dont think his death was punishing to Montag at all, but showed Montag that in this country many people will die before you can change how the society lives, and that Guy would have to kill many of them himself.

ThomasL said...

Beatty soooo knew that Montag would eventually get so aggravated with him that Montag would basically be forced to kill Beatty. Beatty had set the whole thing up all along... but why do you think he wanted to die??

Kc P said...

I disagree with Margo, thaqt the world won't ever get like the book because we look down at people who watch a lot of tv and get fat and have ten kids and twenty abortions. I just don't think that will ever become normal.

SophiaA said...

I think Beatty may have secretly wanted to die because he does not want to live in a society where there are no expressive freedoms.

I think Beatty wanted to be killed by Montag because it would show people how serious people can get over an issue nobody is really dealing with like books. He also probably wanted people to think it was a murder as Emma said. He did not want people to start to question why he would even commit suicide.

AHOLMES! said...

I think that Beatty was a reader himself, and that he hated what he was doing to all of these books that he just loved to read. There was no possible way that he would know all the quotes he said without deeply reading into books like Montag was trying to. I think that Beatty just wanted to die because he felt that guilty about everything he had done and he still didnt want everyone to know that he was a reader, he wanted to die in glory.

Paulh said...

Beatty reminds me of a character in Brave New World. As the fire chief he knows things what their coluntry really is and what the real past is. In Brave New World the leader of the country knows what is wrong with his country and also knows their is no way to stop it.

MargoC said...

i think that beatty had a plan. he was secretly glad that montag is finding the book, that he staged his death. he wanted to die but he wasn't about to kill himself because maybe he felt that; that was not a honorable thing for a fireman to do. He wanted to die but not ruin his reputation of being a somewhat hero so he got montag to mentally hate him and want to kill him!

Bronson said...

I honestly think Beatty was willing to die and would have committed suicide eventually however I think Montag honestly killed him. Beatty may have wanted to die but making someone kill you by being evil is npot suicide, it's still murder.

KyleC said...

Mariah brought up a good point about the easy way out. Beaty easily could have wanted to have the pressure taken off of him, this could be a reason for him killing himself

PaulF said...

I think that Beatty staged a sucicide becasue he was sick of living. Like the previous reference to the fireman who set the hound on himself it was meant to look like a murder so nobody thought badly of them. I think Beatty knows things other people don't and was totured by the information he has.

ThomasL said...

I agree with Sophia and Emma about Beatty's suicide and how he had set it up so it looked like Beatty was murdered rather than him killing himself. Do you think Beatty was guilty about burning all the books??

nicoles said...

I think that Beatty wanted to die. This is because he obviously had a past that involved books and the knowledge they contained. At the beginning of Fahrenheit 451, when Beatty gives his speech to Montag, I think he is trying to convince himself that books are no good, and that he should keep his mind off of them. I also think that he misses obtaining knowledge, and learning about his society. After going through the situation with Montag, I think that Beatty was fed up, and ready to die. He was prepared to end his life, then to live in a society where knowledge didn't exist, and ignorance was the basis of life.

KyleC said...

To answer shannon's question, the fire chiefs are high in society. Its like being the govenor or something like that in our society today. This is one reason that they are so important. They have been involved in the government and see how messed up the government is, they have most likely read books so they know what is right and good.

PaulF said...

I agree with whoever said suicide was taking an easy way out. Many times people will kill themselves in order to not have to live their terrible life any longer.

SophiaA said...

I also agree that Beatty wanted people to think that he was a hero and he was sacrificing his life for the job. He did not want people to even think he committed suicide.

connors said...

I disagree with paul when he said that Beatty wanted to die. Before he was killed Beatty was hypotized by his lighter, everytime he looked into the flame. He enjoyed burning books, he feels that he must burn books to keep people safe. I dont think he hated his life or else he could have just set the hound to himself.

PaulF said...

I think Mildred will go and make a new life like Mrs. Phelps. She will find a superfacial husband to marry and to watch TV with. She won't probably be a major factor in the remainder of the story.

ThomasL said...

Do you think that Mildred might resemble Lady Macbeth due to the fact that she was a coward, hypocrite and only cared about herself and her own safety??

nicoles said...

I think that Mildred will most likely continue to live the life she had lived with Montag. However, she does not want to work for herself and support herself. I think that Mildred's character in this book did its part in displaying the average human during these futuristic times. From Mildred's character we learned a lot about marriage, technology and the ideals of the society at that time.

Bronson said...

I think Mildred is just going to forget everything and start a new life with a new man. There are two things that point to this. One of them is that Mildred can obviously forget things easily like her suicide or when she met her husband. Also, when she walks to the taxi Montag thinks about how she is already starting to forget him. I think that as time progressed people became acustomed to selective memory.

Kc P said...

I don't think Mildred was a huge character to the story but she was just something to consider. She was just on of the tipping points, an example of how bad the world had become.

Alex K said...

I don't think that mildred will maake another appearence in the book because as one of her friends said that she just left the last one and found a new husband. I think that is what millie will do, leave and find someone new and forget about Guy

SophiaA said...

Do you think that Mildred could possibly not just start a new life, but maybe she will finally realize why Montag thought the way he thought?

ThomasL said...

I agree with KC about how Mildred was a minor character but yet she still leaves you wondering how bad the world has become.

Paulh said...

I agree with Thomas people in this world just live for the moment. They don't care about the future. This is kind of like America during the 1920's. Where they "burnt a candle at both ends" this caused our country to partly collapse and will cause this country to collapse

KyleC said...

Montag and Mildred never had a strong enough relationship for him to miss her

nicoles said...

I think that Shakespeare, in Macbeth, also predicted that marriage would become a bland relationship between two people, just as in Fahrenheit 451. Maybe he was commenting on the fact that he disagreed with arranged marriages... ?

Kc P said...

I disagree with Bronson that Mildred will remember Montag just in a bad way. She will always remember the book incedent even though she will try to forget.

AHOLMES! said...

I dont think anyone, even Montag, is going to wonder or even care about where she went.I think their releationship with each other was kind of like some relationships in the real world, the first few years your extremely happy and excited, but then in the next years on, you just cant stand each other. Some parents have that relationship with their kids like that too. OOOO OOOOOOOH OOH!!! ok so theres this one quote i heard and it was like "Kids: you spend the first years teaching them to walk and talk; you spend the next 15 telling them to sit down and shut up." I know that that's more supposed to be funny, but i think it really describes their relationship: its amazing at first, but then they got sick of each other.

KyleC said...

I agree with nicole. He could have been secretely revealing how he really felt

connors said...

I dont think that Montag will worry about and think about Mildred after she leaves him for two reasons. There marriage was just a front and they werent really husband and wife. Also if, if, they had that deep of a relationship, Guy would have been so hurt by her betrayel that he would have hid the feelings deep inside of him, and not think about her.

ThomasL said...

I think Mildred won't come back because she has no thought process whatsoever and could care less about Montag all she wants is TVs, TVs, AND MORE TVs!! I don't think Montag even wants her to come back...

PaulF said...

I agree with Nicole when she says that the marriges between Montag and Mildred and Macbeth and Lady Macbeth are very similar. They don't love each other very much and only use each other to achieve their own goals.

Paulh said...

In this country they don't want people to really love each other becuase eventually one of them would die and people would start thinking about the past which the government doesn't want.

SophiaA said...

I think Mildred will come back in the book because the author most likely put her in the book for a bigger reason and she needs to come back the portray a theme of the book farther like the theme that one does not realize the truth until the person who belive's it is gone.

nicoles said...

I think that when Beatty says that Montag felt on top of the world when he received a few verses of literature, he was referring to himself years ago. He regrets not taking action in obtaining knowledge, and is expressing his anger by taking it out on Montag.

Kc P said...

To answer Shannon's question about Montag going overboard, I don't think he went crazy with books, I just think he barely scrapped the surface but he kept wanting more making him seem crazy.

MargoC said...

i think that she may come back although i truley didn't want her in the story.
When Clarisse talked to Montag and told him her thoughts, Montag changed his prespective on life and he couldnt stop thinking about it. I think that now that Mildred was opened to the door of literature, that she will always be curious and maybe she will eventually want to read herself.
Then another side to think about is that in our first discussion, i remember we talked about how we felt that Montag may have always secretly had those thoughts about rebelling against societys ways and learning about literature and that Clarisse just brought those thoughts out of him and made him think about what he has secretly always known.

Bronson said...

I agree with Ally that nobody will take the time to care about Mildred. Mildred has a lack of real relationships and no one has the need to remeber her. Mildred's friends are not really friends but just extra variables in her television shows. I think the friends were just for show, just like Montag was as a husband.

nicoles said...

I think that Beatty must see death as a release from pressure from the society, and that he can rest in peace.

ThomasL said...

I think that Montag would much rather have Clarisse come back rather than his selfish, rude, annoying, careless, technological, greedy wife. Montag really misses Clarisse and I think he won't miss Mildred at all.

PaulF said...

I agree with Kc P when she says that she thinks Montag was going crazy becasue he was craving books so much. Once he had a tast of the knoledge books held he just wanted more and more.

ThomasL said...

What do you think will happen to Faber, will he get caught and will they burn all his books????

Paulh said...

Montag wants to go to Faber's becuase Faber is Montag's only way out of this crazy world and so his instincts just push him there.

AHOLMES! said...

I think that Montag knew that Faber was the only person he's really trusted. He knows that Faber's the only one who really understood him and accepted him for what he was feeling and what was going on inside his head, and he automatically wanted to be with that person.

Kc P said...

I agree with Bronson that Mildred thought of Montag as just an extra in a big tv show.

Alex K said...

I'm not really sure if montag trusts faber, he might think he does but i don't think he is being as careful about this as he should.

KyleC said...

I think that Montag trusts Faber because Faber trusts him. Montag realizes how educated Faber is because of all the books he's read. Montag realizes this would be a ally to keep when challenging the government

SophiaA said...

Montag and Faber are the most alike people in the society and they are slso starting to gain each other's trust. I also believe it was just instinct and inside he felt he needed to fix things and Faber would help him with that.

PaulF said...

I think there must be other rebellious people that Montag could go and hide with. He will stir up a revolution somehow but I don't know how he could do it on his own. He will find some help either on his own or through Faber

nicoles said...

Faber is almost a make believe portion of Montag's mind. It is as if he is some part of Montag that has always wanted to express itself, but did not do so until just now. Faber, whether he was a man, a spirit, or a fraction of Montag's mind, was an inspiration that spirred Guy on to fight against society.

Bronson said...

I agree With Thomas L because Montag had found in Clarisse everything that he could not find in Mildred. While Clarisse provided intellectual stimulus as well as enjoyable company all Mildred provided was a social symbol and annoyance.

nicoles said...

I also think that Montag goes to Faber because it is all he has left. His home is gone, his wife left him, he does not have any more books..... Faber represents intelligence, and that is all that is left in order to save this futuristic society.

MargoC said...

i agree with paul, there must be more people in this world or society that rebells and reads books and learns literature and knows what is going on is wrong and is not brain washed by the ways of society!

ThomasL said...

I agree with Nicole, Faber seems like an imaginary character. He's almost just as voice inside Montag's head trying to help him.

SophiaA said...

I aggree with Kelsey and think they have an actual real relationship unlike many other people who are married and claim to have a relationship but really don't.

ThomasL said...

At the end of this section Montag hears an anouncement about war being declared, why is war being declared????

Bronson said...

I find it interesting that instead of interupting the "family" for news they only broadcasted it on Seashells and toher radios. That proves that the this parlor room is more important than war, or a crimnal on the loose.

SophiaA said...

I think Courtney has a good point relating Harrison Bergeron to Montag. Harrison is trying to make a difference in the society and government and that is what caused people to have a search for him. The same goes for Montag because he was trying to make a difference with the books, but he just got into more trouble and now people are searching for him too.

connors said...

I think Montag subconciously went to Faber's house because even though they have only known each other for a few days, Faber and Montag have probably the deepest realtionship besides Montag and Clarrise, and the share an inner connection concerning books. Also Faber has somethine Montag wants, knowledge and how to understand books. So Montag will not want to lose Faber, because than he will lose his only chance so far of understanding books.

nicoles said...

I think that Ray Bradbury chose to set this book in a time of war to represent the war that Montag is not only fighting for himself to break from ignorance, but also for his society. It seems to set the theme of the book.

Paulh said...

Montag leaving and the war starting are symbollic because both the enemy country and Montag arte both trying to bring down the same country and society

Kc P said...

I agree with Bronson that the parlor is a scared place that can't be disturbedx but urgent news, though I think it would be a good idea to play the commercial in the parlors if you want more people to see it.

nicoles said...

Books have depth. They involve a certain part of you mind that iPods or other technological advances do not seem to accomplish.

PaulF said...

I think that the real war is foreshadowing a war that will destroy censorship and bring back books.

Paulh said...

Because someone put time and effort into writing the book. In a way they invested a part of themselves into the book. Montag recognizes this when he says that there is a soul behind every book.

KyleC said...

I think Bradbury chose to make books the enemy because people can take offense to the book depending on how the reader takes it. This could be one reason

Kc P said...

I think Bradbury chose books to be the enemy to show you how absurd burning books is, and taking away that part of culture.

AHOLMES! said...

I think that music and books are somewhat alike actually. Cause first in each one, your given the words how the author artist sees something, but in either book or music you can relate it to anything you want, your own life experience of something, or interpret it how you want, so i personally dont think their that much different, really.

SophiaA said...

A book allows you to put your own voices and your own pictures in your head. It allows you to interpret it in numerous ways.

Bradbury chose books to be banned because he knows everybody interprets things in different ways. In other things, like Shannon said, it is just there and it gives you nothing to ponder.

PaulF said...

I think that books are important becasue they can have a personality unlike moives. Books require intellecual thought while movies can be mind-numbing and vegetating. Books also stop bad events from occuring again by writing about them. Books also last longer than movies and aren't influenced by time while movies are.

MargoC said...

i completly DISAGREE with shannon because when i listen to music i sit down and it means something different to me then it does to molly or anyone for that matter. when i go to youth group and i sing about god or whatever i think about something different then if someone who was a different religion then me sang that same song!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ThomasL said...

Books contain ideas and the ideas are different for each person. It's not like TV where you can see each character and what they look like and how they talk. I agree with Jacob and Shannon about books being independent...

nicoles said...

Music is music. They are lyrics. A book can be interpreted entirely differently by different people, just as Jacob said. I think that books force readers to use their imaginations, which is such a critical part of our society and the knowledge we possess.

Alex K said...

I think that bradbury choose books as the enemy because anything can be said in a book. The author can remain unknown so nobody can be punished for what was said. also because they can say anything they could go against the gov't and there might not be a single person to prosecute

Bronson said...

I think that books provide more of a mental stimulus because everything is contained within your head. When you read about these characters you picture them the way you want to instead of how other people wnat you to. Books became the enemy because they allow you to have not only your own opinion but you own world. Nobody reads a book a pictures everyhitng the same as anyone else. A book will provide something in which you can do what you want to and think what you wnat to, unlike a movie when they show you what everyone looks like and what the world acts like. The government in this book prefers the latter because it provides a means of control for what everyone thinks instead of the formal which broadans what people think. Burning the book destorys the ability to think out side the box. By destorying a book you are creating a box for which people can think in.

connors said...

I think books are important, becuase more than a movie or a song, the can draw you in, make you think, predict, and than react to what is happening. In a movie, the enviorment is given to you, the characters looks are given to you, and when somethine major happens you are given the "correct" reaction. But in a book the author might describe the scenery, but you can still imagine it in your own mind, and create you own charcters, and when somethine major happens you can control what you think their reactions should be. Your not being shown what other people think it chould be, your creating your own.

nicoles said...

Bradbury would say that he should burn the books, because they represent knowledge and we might as well just stop thinking all together, if you stop using your brains! IT REPRESENTS the history, and the intelligence of our society.

Paulh said...

Because books make us think and what seperates humans from all other living things is our ability to invent and think. So if we take away the books we are taking away our ability to think and therefore degrading ourselves to less than human.

nicoles said...

You are burning the potential for the human brain!

Bronson said...

I agree with Maro on the idea of music. When I listen to music I am able to interpert that lyrics just as much as how I interpret the lines of a poem, or the words in a book. Music can be just as much as a literally device as anyother writing form.

SophiaA said...

Bradbury is saying that books allow us to express our creativity and the society is taking that away from us because we are coming up with lazier ways and more technological things than books. We aren't really just burning the book but we are burning freedom, creativity,and knowledge.

nicoles said...

When you burn books, you destroy the power of the people to advance and ignorance takes its place. Bradbury predicted that when you start relying on something other than yourself, society goes down the drain. If you do not think for yourself, and no one else does, what else is there to go off of? Just technology....

Kc P said...

I think people feel the same way as Margo and Bronson in the book, but all the tecnology and progressivism has made it hard to appreciate it the way they used to.

SophiaA said...

The society wants everybody to be equal, and by allowing people to read books they are not making people equal because books give you knowledge and allow you to analyze things more.

KyleC said...

Molly brings up a good point because you actually have to THINK when you're reading a book

PaulF said...

I think that people view killing as a pastime becasue they don't value life. Instead of it being an atrocity they view it as an activity.

AHOLMES! said...

i agree with Jacob on what he was saying. But with the whole thing about the auther writing Farenheit 451, i think that that he was using the burning of the books as a symbol of burning the ideals and thoughts of the people that wrote them.

Alex K said...

I agree with Molly that books challenge the mind to think more than usual

Bronson said...

As i menitoned before by destroyin a book you are creating ignorance. So it is ture that something comes out of burning a book but it is not a good thing but instead possibly hateful and destructful

ThomasL said...

I agree with Mariah!!!! Kids are raised to just watch TV and I'm pretty sure the TV shows they're are watching don't have the best morals.

nicoles said...

In AMerica, you have the right to express yourself however you want to. When books are taken away, that completely eliminates a portion of what we are able to do as citizens of the U.S.