Tuesday, October 28, 2008

3rd hour Fahrenheit 451 Liveblog Discussion pgs 110-130

70 comments:

MelissaC said...

Mildred’s main thought was how she was going to lose her family. I think the only reason she turned Montag in was because she thought that he could threaten her normal life and separate her from her parlor. She probably never thought, at first, that it would mean burning her ‘family’. It’s pretty scary that she think more about them and thinks that they having feelings (“my poor, poor family”, or something along those lines).

morganh said...

Mildred was only thinking of herself when she turned Montag in. All she cares about are her family and parlor walls, but she would destroy them with fire. I think she just wants to start over, and get away from Montag...and just forget about him.

crastrelli said...

i WOULD LIKE TO POSE A QUESTION. (woops CAPS) in the society of Fahrenheit 451, murder is a regular, everyday thing, and no one is bothered by death. I just want to ask if you guys think that our society is headed that way, because already the murder of babies is excused, and in some parts of the world, its ok to kill old or retarded people also.

Ally C said...

I think that Mildred turned Montague in without really thinking about the consequences of what she was doing. I don’t think that it registered to her that her house would be burned down, that she might never see Montague again and her name might be mud because of her husbands actions.

emeraldo said...

I think this shows how much Mildred really doesn’t love Montag. It shows her and it shows the readers that she never really loved him, or at least not enough to stay with him when there is a time of crisis. Its surprising that she would be willing to lose her tvs and ‘family’.

JackW said...

I think Mildred turning in Montag was very interesting. By bringing out the book and reading from it to Mildred and her friends Montag was probably not thinking that she would ever turn him in. But after her friends leave Montag overhears Mildred talking to her self calling him a damn fool for bringing out the book.

crastrelli said...

I agree with Alli, and MOrgan, and Melissa. haha. Mildred is just a selfish person all together.

MelissaC said...

Cali, first of all, lets not go into abortion. Whether someone thinks that abortion is murder or not is an opinion.

Then, killing old people is for there own good, in order to subside their pain.

I believe that, even in Bradbury's society, murder is not a regular thing. I don't think the society realizes that those people dying is actually murder. I also don't believe we are heading that way.

emeraldo said...

ok i agree with melissa i think we should leave politics out of this

emeraldo said...

but i don't think we are headed in that direction. one reason because enough people compassion for other people and other peoples lives

MelissaC said...

Thank you Emerald ;)

I agree with Jack that it is interesting how Mildred turned Montag in. That really proved to him that she didn't really love him, especially since she barely even acknowledged him when he arrived at his about-to-be-burned house. She didn't even apologize to him for turning him in.

emmal said...

Well responding to your question Caley, your comment reminds me of the Giver. When they release a citizen, whether its a newborn baby or an old person, they killed it. Its very sad and I hope our world isn't but it could happen. When you turn on the TV and they are talking about death do you really care?

crastrelli said...

I don't really see how you can leave politics out of this, because that's mainly what this book is based upon. Politics is how they got into the way their society is in this book. But if you guys don't see the relevance, or don't feel comfortable, then I understand.

Ally C said...

I'm sorry if I missed this but can anyone explain to me how the people in the inner circle connected a carnivle with this book?

MelissaC said...

I understand that some political issues are relevant, but I really don't see too much relevance in abortion. But let's not argue about that. Let's discuss ;)

crastrelli said...

Thank-you Emma.

When I hear about deaths on TV, it disturbs me, but its become so normal of a thing, to hear about people dying, that it can't have the big effect that it should on people. So, I believe, if something in our soceity doesn't change soon, our children's children may have to live with this type of soceity. But, I also have confidence in our generation, that we can change the direction we're headed in.

morganh said...

I agree with Cali that politics is a main theme in this book.
By the way, I really don't know where our society is headed. I can see that our country could go down that road or not, for alot of different reasons.

emeraldo said...

again i agree with melissa
i guess i see the relevance of politics but when we bring it into this i can almost guarantee that there will be a debate, not a discussion

crastrelli said...

Ally,
with the whole carnical thing, I'm not exactly sure, but I think that it was something about how easily people were entertained back then, that they would go and watch carnivals be set up, and now like-they need new entertainment, but are still easily entertained. But I'm just guessing, cuz I didn't hear either. haha

emeraldo said...

for emmas question, it is actually hard for me to watch the news and things because of the violence but i dont think our world will be filled with murder, one because the news reports 10 times more bad stuff than good stuff, thats just how it is and two i thinki enough parents will teach there kids that violence is wrong thqat our society will never becaome that way

morganh said...

Both Beatty and Montag are a problem to eachother and when one of them is dead, then the problem is basically resolved, I guess.

MelissaC said...

As Aaron said, it is ironic that Montag burned Beatty after Beatty said to burn problems. Bradbury did mention this and did emphasize this a bit. Montag said something after burning Beatty, in a bit of a taunting way.

Ally C said...

I agree with Jon, although you can learn from T.V., books are so much more influential in the sense that they can really cause you to think and form your own opinions about life. Whereas if you are just sitting in front of a T.V., you don't process things as much.

JackW said...

Ally-
The inner circle were talking about how in the book the people watching the fire is compared to a carnival. To the other people, the burning of Montag's house is appealing such as a carnival. Also they were talking about how when you see a car accident on the highway, lots of people slow down to see what happened which causes problems for the rest of the traffic.

JackW said...

Morgan-If the problem were over then the book would be over. Obviously Montag killing Beatty wasnt the resolution to the problem of the book.

Ally C said...

Thanks Caley!

crastrelli said...

Ok, well I'm not trying to go onto the topic of abortion specifically, but don't you guys think that it's intersting, that when this book was written, abortion would not be legalized for another 20 years, but Bradbury makes a reference to it in this current soceity??


its on p. 101

BStrobel said...

But emerald, people dont want to hear about the good things. not many people are going to listen to the the news when the headline is "boyscout helps old woman across street." People want action in their lives and for many people, the news is the only way to get that.

emmal said...

Same here, Emerald! I also have a really hard time watching the news because I feel like the majority of the things they talk about is about violence and death. It kinda scares me.

MelissaC said...

So practical, Jack. ;)

But, I agree. Beatty is not Montag's only probably. However, Beatty was like the base of all of Montag's problems. You could think of it like a pyramid - Once the base collapses, then the whole thing collapses, and eventually totally falls apart. This is why we are approaching the end of the book. All is left for Montag to do is to push that last push to topple the entire pyramid over, without getting caught first.

I got the pyramid thing from somewhere else, but I can't remember.

mmoritz said...

katief said...
I think that she’s not thinking about the consequences of her actions. She acted on impulse and instinct instead of rational thought. Mildred was scared, so she turned him in without understanding the result.

October 28, 2008 8:48 AM
katief said...
I think people have a dark side. If it’s not happening to you, its fun to watch. Back in biblical times, people watched gladiators and executions, as we still do today. That stuff intrigues us and in a way, it shapes us.

October 28, 2008 8:55 AM
katief said...
"The books are to remind us what fools we are. They are Caesar’s praetorian guard, whispering as the parade roars down the avenue, 'Remember, Caesars, tho art mortal." Betty also says books make man feel small and that’s a feeling no one likes to have. They make you feel alone in the world. They remind you that you don’t know everything.

emeraldo said...

You know what i just realized... sorry this isn't really relevant, but people today are like the firemen. they like fire. Once when i was little, there was a house that burned downvin my neighborhood. i was to young to understand what was happening but my parents and sister have explained it to me. but what happened was that we got in the car and we drove to go find it( we had seen the smoke from our house) and when we got there, there was a huge crowd of people, according to my sister some people even had lawn chairs and they were sitting out watching the fire and this house just burn. it was terrible. but it shows that people today arent that different than the people in this book.

Ally C said...

And thanks Jack!

Well Caley I do think that it is really intresting that Bradbury would make a refrence to abortion so long ago and now it is one of the major issues in our society. I think that Bradbury made a lot of predicions in Fahrenheit 451 that are so relevant in our society today, and that is one of the reasons that I find this book so intresting to read.

MelissaC said...

Cali, are you sure about the whole 20 year later abortion thing? I am not sure that is true. It would be interesting if it were true, but it seems unrealistic when Bradbury had a specific name for the procedure, not to mention the same name we use for it today...

morganh said...

Good point Jack.

crastrelli said...

Wait, what is the inner circle talking about right now??

mmoritz said...

Legal abortion Melissa--abortions were being done, they were just "back alley" abortions.

emeraldo said...

i agre with katie, that if its not happening to you its fun to watch. and thasts how these people at the fire were. they acted more like it was just a movie than like it was an actual families house. they didnt think how this family was probably devasted. they just thought ooh fire. sucks for the people whose house it is but all the more entertaining for me.

crastrelli said...

Melissa,
that's what is so weird! This book was published in 1953 or something right? abortion was legalized in 1973. IT's exactly 20 years. Except, beofre it was legalized, women still had 'back-alley' abortions, where they did it themselves, when it was still illegal.

Ally C said...

Emerald...

I think that was a really great parallel about the house burning down, but it makes me sad when I think about it. The house that was burning down was someone's home, filled with all of their belongings and precious memories, and there were a ton of people just watching for their entertainment, not really realizing how serious this was to that family.

morganh said...

Emerald-
I agree with you, and thats a pretty awful story I must say. I think people have always been interested in fire, but to watch someone elses house burn down and not really do anything is just sick (sick in the bad way)

MelissaC said...

Oh I see. Thank you, Mrs. Moritz :)

Then, yes, Cali, that is very interesting that Bradbury mentioned abortion being a normal thing in society. It is not normal today and no one LIKES them (no one thinks "yay for abortions!! Everyone, get an abortion today!" ;)), but in Brabury's society, it is totally acceptable to get one and woman seem to like them in order to save them the trouble of having to raise a baby and having to deliver one.

emmal said...

Haha its sad but true, Emerald. But I don't think you don't feel it at all if its not happening to you, but rather if it had a connection to you. Like if your friends house was burning down oyu wouldn't be like well, sucks for you! At least I hope not...

crastrelli said...

Yes, I agree with Morgan. I can see that some people would sit and watch, but that is an awful thing, and just makes it all the more worse for the people whose house it is. I mean, I can understand going to just watch, but at least try to make it less obvious

morganh said...

I don't really understand what Elaine just asked...

emeraldo said...

i wonder if montag felt like how the people that watched the fire might feel if their house burned down. i think he might not have realized quite how terrible it was burning peoples house down until he was in that situation

Ally C said...

I agree with Haley, although Beatty wasn't the government, he represented the ideas they held. Just because he was killed, it doesn't mean that all the corruption of this society is destoryed and things can return to the way they were before books were illegal.

morganh said...

Yes, eactly Cali, they could come and watch but make it less obvious, or they could also be less jerkish and ask if they can help in some way.
It must have been really embarrasing and sad for the house owners to know that the people theat live around them won't even help them in their time of need, they will just sit back and watch bad things happen to them.

emeraldo said...

yeah emma i know what you mean. im guessing that none of these people had a special connection because not alot of people were doing anything to help. we dont exactly have a very... whaqts the word... connected(i guess) neighborhood.

emmal said...

I don't think its burning people, I thinks its burning memories, dreams and past generations of knowledge. I was responding to the inner circle by the way.

MelissaC said...

Emerald, of course Montag had no idea what it felt like. When he had no idea how precious books were, he thought he was doing good, he liked it, he enjoyed seeing things burn. Even after he started to appreciated the "magic" in books, he still never realized, or even thought of, how bad it would be to have your house burned down and some books that you love. Until his house was burned down, Montag had no idea how crushing that was, which is why the old woman who burned in her house stayed in the house. She knew she wouldn't be able to bear a life without books after learning what they had to give and after seeing them burning right in front of her.

morganh said...

I agree with Ally agreeing with Haley because the government is still there even if Beatty is dead, but don't alot of people represent the government in thius book?
Or maybe the represent the kind of society the government wants to achieve, I don't know this book is pretty confusing.

katief said...

I think the government’s power over the people is dwindling. The whole point of the government is to keep the people under their thumb. Once some people begin to challenge the system, everyone gets a bigger idea. In Iron Jawed Angles, when Alice challenges the system, the other prisoners do also. In that moment they have power over the 'government'.

emeraldo said...

its funny because this has happened to me twice. the second time it was across the street form my house and there was a smaller fire so not as many people came, only the people on my street. but it was the same thing people just watching. i was kept inside which is weird because i was older than the first time. whats also kind of ironic about the second time is that i was upset, not because of the burning house, but because i was afraid i was going to miss Melissa's birthday party ;)but that also shows im just as sick as all the other people that i cared more about missing a birthday party than a house on fire across the street.

crastrelli said...

good connection Katie! For those not in Crosby's history class, Iron Jawed Angels is a book about the women rights movement, and Alice PAul is kind-of the reason and leader behind the rebellion.

morganh said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
crastrelli said...

I completely don't know what Aaron is trying to say....but I agree with Hailey, and a flag is not just a peice of cloth with patterns on it.

MelissaC said...

If firemen burned the thing(s) most precious to me, they would burn all of my pictures and my computer (which stores a TON of pictures, that's why my computer is precious to me). I could never get those pictures back from me and those are reminders of my past and things I have done in my life. It would be like missing a part of my life.

katief said...

I think its not the object itself but the idea behind it, the thing is symbolizes.

Ally C said...

The inner circle was talking about a good book and how the writer touches life often and that remimded me of some books that I have read. Sometimes, a certain chapter, passage or even just a single sentence will relate to my life so much, and I will feel a connection to that book because it touched my life so much.

Also, Haley was talking about what she would feel if someone burned her Bible, and I can totally relate to that. It is not just a book, it is a symbol of my faith and everything I believe in, and if someone were to burn that it would be so much more painful than if someone burned any other book of mine.

emmal said...

Responding to the inner circle, I think I would be like, I spent money on that!!!
Ha just kidding. I agree with Haley. If someone burned the American flag I would be angry because the flag means something to me.

morganh said...

The flag is a symbol of freedom and it's important to the U.S. and you can't think of America swithout thinking of the flag
It is the main symbol of this country

BStrobel said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
MelissaC said...

Wow that is a great connection Emerald. You cared more about missing my birthday party (which IS important, of course ;)) instead of worrying about the house. That is like Mildred worrying about her 'family' and parlor, instead of Montag.

Good discussion everyone :)

JackW said...

Aaron's point is interesting because ANYTHING can be thought of as a symbol. Whoever the possession belongs to would decide what that thing represents to them. Like the American people decide themselves what the flag personally means to them. However other people around the world may see the American flag as a symbol of evil and corruption.

emeraldo said...

bstrobel that depends on the person some people would pick religion some wuold pick their country

crastrelli said...

I definitely agree with Emma, and Ally, and Morgan? haha. MY bible and the American flag would be the most painful things to watch burn, because those are things we put faith in, and are symbols of hope, and love. (the creepy Islamic video!!! haha, but seriously, they burn American flags, it's creepy and disgusting)

emeraldo said...

that was a good connection too melissa! i didnt think of that

emmal said...

I think it would also depend on the person's intentions while burning th flag.

morganh said...

Jack I don't really know if thats true, I don't consider my belonings to be a symbol that represents me, like my phone wouldn't represent me.