Tuesday, October 14, 2008

3rd hour Fahrenheit 451 Liveblog Discussion pgs 24-40

102 comments:

alexj said...

They are very similar and they also show our future reliance on technology. Our police cars and firehounds would not actually be alive.

HaileyJ said...

i think that there is a difference between the mechanical hound and the police car because the police car does have a mind of there own but is controlled by a person who is watching it however the hound is just set to attack when threatened. i think that the police car has more of a mind then the hound does.

JackW said...

I like the way Jillian made that connection with the movie I Robot. The way the machines in both stories work make you think that they may have a mind of thier own but you are not sure.

alexj said...

I don't think that the Hound actually dislikes Montag. I think that he just doesn't care for the Hound and is paranoid about it coming after him.

christinah said...

we are alos developing robots today
eventually we might be just like what ray bradbury predicts

anishp said...

The police car in the pedestrian is more a patroller of the streets than the mechanical hound is. The mechanical hound is not a patroller, but rather a thing that threatens people because it was programmed that way. The police car has its own thoughts and ways to think, but the mechanical hound is similar to someone or something that has learned new behaviors and is acting according to these learned behaviors.

paigel said...

I think there is a major difference between the police car in The Pedestrian and the "hound" in Farenheit 451. The police car is able to think and process more than the hound can because it is run by an actual person. The hound has just been programed to kill and not think about who its killing or why.

Elaine's Blog said...

To go along with Alex's thought, Do you think Beatty could have possibly gave the chemical complex of Montag to the Mechanical Hound so that whenever Montag touched or was around the Hound, it reacted to him?

bryce said...

I think that there is not a lot in common between the police car in the pedestrian and the mechanical hound in fahrenheit 451. The police car could talk and think. The mechanical hound can't do either of those things.

emmal said...

I think they are different becuase the Mechanical Hound is t ever trained and programmed to kill. On the other hand, Police and Police cars are trained to do many more things than just kill.

DrewS. said...

I think that the police car and the hound are very different. The car seems to have a bit of a mind of its own, where as the hound has to be programed by a human so it can do what it is supposed to. Both are made for the same purpose though, and that is to enforce the law.

katief said...

These future technologies are bolth very similar, they are non-living things that seem to have a mind of their own.

DrewS. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
JackW said...

I think Tim has a good point when he said that why would they even learn how to read if they are just burning all the books. I think some books would be very censored from the original text or the government would just keep the original copies of the books that the people cannot reach. Also, the people have other things to read like magazines and billboards. I also wonder if even children's books are censored or if lower level books which require less thought arent censored at all

bryce said...

Elaine, I don't think Beatty would do that to Montag. I don't think that they are friends, but he certainly doesn't seem to hate Montag.

Elaine's Blog said...

I agree with Paige in the fact that the police car has a mind to possibly think... and how the Hound does not really have a mind in which is only used to kill people and living things. The chemical complex of a human being is given to the hound so that he can only kill while the police car patrols the streets, as Anish said, and watches for people to do something illegal.

HaileyJ said...

Elaine, why would Beatty give the hound montag as prey? he thinks that all of Montag's thoughts on the matter are insane. I think that someone might have tampered with it but not Beatty

haleyp said...

Reguarding Aaron's question about all the books being banned, I think that the books that this community has aren't exactly books. I think that they look like books, they're called books, but they aren't really books. They are more like manuels that the citizens read to become more like everyone else and take away from originality. It could even be that once these "books" become outdated or have information that is no longer true, the fireman burn these books. Because why would this community just burn books that they gave if not to get rid of information that is unnecessary.

jonathank said...

The idea of thought is central to this book. The idea that a machine could think is actually very scary in this situation because a machine can never have moral values. For instance, in I-Robot, there had to be rules for the robots because they didn't have their own inherent ideas of right and wrong. So, one might say that a thinking mind without moral values is even scarier than those with moral values not thinking.

JackW said...

I like Ben's thought about Clarisse talking about things in life as "wine". She has developed her thinking where she can find pleasure in things most people think of as dull or boring. It just proves how she really thinks while everyone else just follows

HaileyJ said...

I think that ben brings up a great question and i have to say that in this particular story the wine tastes of something that people cannot have. Meaning thtt the people in the story cannot be able to taste the wine of knowledge and thinking for themsleves. They are missing out on the sweeter side of life.

christinah said...

her mind is more mature than others
maybe she became this bright from books

she likes to thinkl about things others normally wouldn't

alexj said...

I think that the fact that Clarisse enjoys drinking the rainwater because it tastes like wine but not when someone else tells you that it tastes like wine really demonstrates the difference between Clarisse and society. Clarisse goes her own way but society does what it is told with no arguments.

emmal said...

I agree with Jillian in the opinion that "wine" is what makes life more interesting and at school, according to Clarisse, they don't learn about those things. All they give them is water, which is considered useless by Clarisse.

Elaine's Blog said...

True Bryce, but as the story continues in context like on page 31 of my book where someone says, "Montag a funny thing. Heard tell this morning. Fireman in Seattle purposly set a Mechanical Hound to his own complex..." To me, this sounds very suspicous to what is going on in the firehouse. And what Tim said, Montag started to ask a bunch of questions and Beatty started getting suspicious. And the lady who burned herself with her books, to go along with what Ben is saying right now, Beatty realized that Montag was affected by it. thoughts?

mmoritz said...

I know your are blogging, but please try to use proper grammar, punctuation, spelling, etc. It makes me crazy!!!

haleyp said...

In this story its almost as if the people are actually acting as robots. Besides Clarisse and her strange family. But Montag didn't even know what the real meaning of happiness was, his wife sat around all day interacting with her soap operas, and the enitre community shows little to no emotion at all. So I think its not only the objects used to stop crimes, that are robotic, but also the citizens are too.

JackW said...

But hailey when you say they are missing out on "the sweeter side of life" you have to realize that most people except Clarisse don't even realize that "the sweeter side" exists. They know not to question how they live. An example is when Montag first met Clarisse he shot down all her ideas and her thoughts but then he started to actually thing about what she was saying.

anishp said...

The question Ben had is something to really analyze. I agree with Hailey on the idea that people cannot have the wine of knowledge. It is like the wine is knowledge that they literally thirst for and lust for. The burning of the books is ridding the world of knowledge in Fahrenheit 451

christinah said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
mmoritz said...

Christina, you're killing me!

katief said...

Montag is starting to challenge the system and it startles Beatty. He begins to think, and as a fireman, that is dangerous. He's becoming insterested in books and curious as to why they are banned. I wonder if he's hiding books in his ventilator.....

christinah said...

maybe the rain is like wine to clarisse in a religious way
like how catholics drink wine to symbolize christs blood.

paigel said...

I agree with Alex's comment about how Clarisse likes the taste of rain because she discovered it, she wasn't told how good it tastes. I think this relates to real life because often times you get more pleasure and enjoyment out of something YOU discover not something told or showed to you by someone else.

jonathank said...

To go along with the current inner-circle discussion, I have one quote to share with you guys. "How fortunate for the government that the people don't think." The robodog reperesents the government here because the government does not share the moral values of the people. Meaning that if the people don't think, then they won't and can't challenge the decisions of the government. The government has become what everyone fears it will: an all-controlling power without morals. So really, are man's virtues directly related to his thought?

bryce said...

I agree with Jillian about the books. The government probably has read all the books and decided that they shouldn't be read. I am wondering how and why they banned all books. Every book cannot possibly be bad.

haleyp said...

I think Jillian's point of the government not wanting the people as smart or as powerful as they are. This is totally true because there are rules and restrictions on everything, no matter how small. Reading normal books are not accepted, walking along the freeway is not accepted, and sitting and talking about happiness or just talking in itself is no accepted. So I think Jillian is very accurate in her statement of the power feeling insecure and threatened by the idea of normal citizens becoming smarter then they.

HaileyJ said...

Exactly Jack. I feel that this book is portaraying the idea that these people have been told what to do so many times that they can't think for themselves and that they are missing out. Clarisse is able to think for herself. The sweeter side of life refers to thinking and having thoughts and sharing them.

christinah said...

Time seems to slow down when you are relaxing in the sun of a lazy afternoon.

DrewS. said...

Going back to Elaine's question of could Beatty have given the Hound the chemical formula for Montag, I think that it is possibly for Beatty to program the Hound for Montag's chemical complex. However so far in the book Beatty has no reason to want to hurt Montag which leads me to believe that Beatty did not set the chemical complex to be the same as Montag's.

Elaine's Blog said...

I agree with Katie about Montag hiding books in his venilator because when he goes home after meeting Clarisse in the first couple of pages, he looks up in guilt at the venilator and possibly the only guilt in this time period is having books

katief said...

"Time has fallen asleep in the afternoon sunshine"...People are comfortable with normality and rules, allowing them to fall asleep and let the government handle their problems.

JackW said...

I think the quote Ben brought up that Montag read from the book is interesting. "Time has fallen asleep in the afternoon sunshine". I interpret this as meaning that the time of the past has "fallen asleep" which is why society is functioning the way it is in the book. But when time wakes up, it will go back to the way it was before.

HaileyJ said...

Is the goverment truly corputing the citizens or just doing something based on what they think is right????

alexj said...

I agree with Drew about Beatty being a suspicious character but them actuslly seem to be kind of friends when they talk at first. But on the other hand, he quickly puts down Montag's suspicions about the Hound... maybe too quickly.

haleyp said...

Does Montag realize that not all books are wrong?Does he know why they are burning all these books?

paigel said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
jonathank said...

I love Melissa's question. I think Montag is so relevant here because he represents challenging the system. He is an agent of the government but he starts thinking, reading, feeling, drinking wine. Montag represents hope. Montag represents the potential of goodness in man, the potential to overcome evil.

bryce said...

Jon, I agree with your comment. What I don't understand is how the government is able to carry out all these laws about books that intrude on people's privacy.

emmal said...

I agree with Katie. The people have fallen into a routine and no one really thinks for themselves. No one is challenging the system!

Elaine's Blog said...

To answer Hailey Johnson's question, I do acutally think that the government is trying to corrupt the system of life and to make civilization "perfect" to be an Utopia society. I made a connection to the movie Equilibrium, to what Jon Karr connected to the other day, and how the society is watched by those who are "scary" but not really scary as the movie continues on talking about how the main character, played by Christian Bale, startes to do what Montag is now doing in Fahrenheit 451.

JackW said...

Another thought about the quote is that if you fell asleep in the afternoon sunshine you would most likely end up getting sunburned. The sunburn would look bad and probably hurt for a while but in time it will heal and your skin will be back to normal. The same connection could be made to the society in Fahrenheit 451. They fell asleep a long time ago and now are in the worst stage of the healing where it gets alot worse, and then it begins to get better.

alexj said...

To respond to Hailey P, I don't think that he realizes why he burns the books at the beginning but he seems to begin to understand how wrong he is after talking to Clarisse.

katief said...

Is there a connection between LOTF and Faherenheit? Fire saves the boys on the island, but it also destroys the civilized world we live in.

DrewS. said...

I was wondering as I read last night if the Hound has more of a brain then the Firemen think? An example of this might be that nobody has set the Hound's chemical complex to Montag's but maybe the hound can sense that Montag is breaking the law because he has a book at his house while he is going to other peoples houses and burning their books.

christinah said...

response to hailey:

Well, i think that Montag has been brought up with this whole, we hate books thing, so he probably doesn't realize that it's wrong.

He is just doing what he likes to do best.

anishp said...

"time has fallen asleep in the afternoon sunshine." This quote that you guys have been talking about a lot could mean that the fire is the sun energy that is burning the books. The books are burning and the knowledge is being taken away. This knowledge leaving the world through the book burning could symbolize a ceasing in advancement and development in the world. Time stops when knowledge cannot continue to move time forward.

JackW said...

In response to Hailey P.'s question, I think he has never even thought about questioning burning the books until he met Clarisse. Through her carefree actions, she has taught him to question EVERYTHING. She wants him to think why he does all this things whether than just doing it because that is all he knows.

HaileyJ said...

Is it too much effort for these citizen's to take time to question why these books are being burned? what is holding them back?

alexj said...

I think that that is the reason why the government is not letting them read, they don't want to let them get smart enough to realize what the government is doing.

Elaine's Blog said...

I agree with Emma, how no one is really challenging the system. But than there are people who need to challenge the system, like in Lord of the Flies how Jack went against Ralph and went against the peace of the conch. In this situation, people who keep books in their housess are challenging the system and those who live outside of the main society are challenging the system, if there were people living outside of the main society of the world.

haleyp said...

Hailey J:

I think that there has to be someone in the government who knows that there is something wrong with the things that they are getting rid of, because if they didn't have a good reason to burn the books why would they? Of course, there's the argument they want to keep knowledge from the citizens, but why not tv? Sure, there's is manipulated but it still brings knowledge. Why are books such a big issue for this government, why do they NEED to be burned?

jonathank said...

Fire is an interesting thing. It can be a source of comfort, even a preserving factor of life, but it quickly turns into destructive. FIRE MUST REPRESENT POWER! Power, and government, can both be used to protect people, to keep them steady. However, when carelessly used, when not kept in check, fire quickly becomes a malevolent force. Rain also puts out fire. What's the connection there?

HaileyJ said...

Right now all of us are reading banned books. These books have been banned for a certain reason by someone or an orginazation. If you were not reading this book that someone had banned and someone told you to burn it becuase its so bad, would you do it becuase you were told to, or take that book into your own hands and make up your mind? Think of the position that these people are in.

emmal said...

I really like Katie's comment on LOTF. The fire saves the boys but it destroys all civilization. But what is the fire saving in Farenheit 451?

bryce said...

Katie, I think that there is a connection between Fahrenheit 451 and Lord of the Flies. The I think that Jack in LOF represents the government in Fahrenheit 451. They both have brainwashed the people and their followers do not seem to think anymore. However, in both books, there are outcasts that think. In LOF, Ralph and Piggy think and they are exculded from the group. In Fahrenheit 451, Clarhisse and now Montag are starting to think and the both are becoming more and more unlike the others.

DrewS. said...

I disagree with what Emma said about people not challenging the system. Clarisse challenges the system a lot by talking deeply with people and wanting to know things about the past. Also, Montag seems to challenging the system with the thing that is hidden behind the vent in his house.

paigel said...

In response to Hailey J.'s question:
I think that the reason why the citizen's don't question the burning of the books is because it has been done for so long and no one really seems to notice it anymore. The burning of books has become so routine no one bothers to question it. Also, the society these people live in is one where you aren't expected to think and question things, all they know how to do is exsist, and take up space. They don't really serve any purpose in their own community.

Elaine's Blog said...

To answer Emma's question, fire in the eyes of the government is saving those who must be saved who read books. However, fire in the eyes of regular civilization represents danger.

JackW said...

Emma, I think the fire in Fahrenheit 451 still "saves" people but in a different way then we might think. The government is trying to "save" the people from the ways of the free thinking past by burning the books. Thoughts?

haleyp said...

Kind of around what Jon said about a connection between the fire and rain.
I think it's a bit ironic that Clarisse loves rain, she loves the taste, the presence, and everything about rain. She doesn't seem to like the books being burned which is brought on by fire. Her lovely rain extinguishes this raging and destroying fire.

emmal said...

Well Drew, I wasn't exactly talking about Clarisse. I was talking about the average person in their society.

katief said...

Checks and balances keep our government a democracy. The different groups are supposed to make sure no one gets too much power.

anishp said...

In response to Hailey J.'s question, I don't necessarily think it is too much effort for them to think why the books are being burnt, but because the government is so dominant over the citizens, each citizen is not going to question the government's authority. If no one wants to question the government on burning books, the only way for citizens to do this is for all of them to question the government and form a group. Each citizen needs to think for themselves.

HaileyJ said...

Jillian brings up a great point. The lady can feel the emotion that is convayed throughout the books that she owns. Not everyone thinks that these books are bad...not everyone listens to the government...there are some who know what is right...will they come to change what is happening...or just let it slide..?

paigel said...

Tim asks a great question, I think the woman wants to stay with her books because they provide feeling, emotion, and knowledge for her. She realizes through these books that life can have depth and there is more out there than what her community now has to offer.

Elaine's Blog said...

To go along with what Tim just asked, I think that the lady was giving a message and to what Melissa is now just saying, she could possibly want the firemen to feel guilt. Also, the lady who burned herself with her books may not have wanted to live without her books. Books are knowledge and to what Michael is saying, life without books and imagination is not worth living for if you are just to sit in front of the viewing screen and vegitate. thoughts?

mmoritz said...

Do you think the women who struck the match was a martyr?

jonathank said...

There's something here about books that's beyond knowledge. People love books. They're not looking for power from them. Why do some people in 451 value books soooo much? What is the relation between books and happiness?

alexj said...

I agree with Jillian that the lady saw what the government was doing and realized that she would rather die with the books than live with the thought that she let them burn her books.

christinah said...

she realizes the knowlegde behind these books

bryce said...

Katie, maybe every branch of the government agrees that books should be banned.

JackW said...

I have a connection to Spider-man the movie. Peter's uncle ben says,"With great power comes great repsonsibility". I think since Clarisse has all this knowledge and the ability to think, she obviously has some power over everyone else. So she should take it upon herself to educate everyone else, like Montag, on how to think for themselves and question how they live.

Elaine's Blog said...

I agree with you Jake how the government is trying to "save" the people from danger that books may give to the average Joe. But what does the burning of books have to do with the free thinking past and how our government is like today of how we have the freedom to do somet things that others aren't allowed to do? Thoughts?

jonathank said...

I finally agree with something Michael said in this discussion. Books must represent freedom. But why do humans value freedom so highly? Why do martyrs die for freedom? Any connection to Iron Jawed Angels?

anishp said...

Which is more important: happiness like Clarisse has or knowledge like the women possesses through reading books?

emmal said...

I agree with Jack. The government is burning the past to try and save the people from making mistakes people in the past have made. But is this really saving the society?

HaileyJ said...

before the lady dies, she says "play the man, Master Ridley; we shall this day light such a candle, by God's grace, in Englad, as I trust shall never be put out." what does that mean in your mind?

christinah said...

there is alot of connections to animals int his book

like the salamander and the snake or cobra that was used to clean his wife out

they all represent and symbolize in this book

haleyp said...

In reguard to Mrs.Moritz question, I think the lady was a martyr. If you look at the definition of martyr its: somebody who chooses to die rather than deny a strongly held belief, especially a religious belief. While books aren't religious, this woman treated them as her source of sanity and security, without them, she was helpless and vunerable in a sense.

Elaine's Blog said...

Jack, I agree with the train of thought that you are following, but as she said, people don't really listen to her because they think she is crazy and they just keep walking. So how is she to educate everyone else when no one is actually willing to listen and the society keeps moving at a really fast pace... thoughts?

anishp said...

Is it better to be a martyr for happiness or knowledge? Would you die for knowledge for happiness?

alexj said...

Jillian's point is correct and it is nearly the exact same thing that the government in Harrison Bergeron is doing: stopping progress.

bryce said...

I think that the women who struck the match is a martyr because she died for something she believed in. However, her death will be pointless unless others follow her and think.

christinah said...

i nthink the lady is quoting from a book
i'm not sure what it means though

JackW said...

Elaine way to go calling me Jake not Jack :D

christinah said...

jack that's a personal attack tsk tsk

alexj said...

I think that the man who burned at the stake was as much of a martyr as the lady who burned with her books was. They both are giving society hope.

DrewS. said...

I think that the lady wants to stay and be burned with her books because she realizes the how meaningful the books are. I also think that she is trying to make a statement to the government that books are an important piece of history and society and that there is no reason to burn them. I think that the lady is a martyr because she is willing to die for her beliefs. In the book though the government tends to view people like the lady who would die for their books as crazy and that is why they send them to the assylum.

Elaine's Blog said...

I agree with Alex, but can people see that hope in which people like the man and the lady?

katief said...

Yes I think she is a martyr, but they have been taught that these people are insane. Usually, when someone is considered a martyr everyone believes their cause is just. If someone is willing to die form something they believe in, then everyone else should pay attention!

christinah said...

bye