Monday, October 20, 2008

4th hour Fahrenheit 451 Liveblog Discussion pgs 40-68

110 comments:

nicoles said...

bhjghkk

bella said...
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MariahF said...

i think that they are allowed to take home books so they know why they aren't allowed.

Thomasm said...

overall i think that it is just an exception to serve the firemans thirst for what lays inside the books and allows them to be curious but burn them themselves therefore ending their thirst

AHOLMES! said...

Like Beatty saysw in the book, itws mostly to fufill the firemen's curiosity. Their allowed to have the book for 24 hourss untill they have to burn in and if they dont the other firemen simply cfome and urn it for them. I think its basically to let them satisfy their curiostity.

EvanS said...

Firemen are allowed to bring home books and keep them for 24 hours because Beatty wants them to satisfy their curosity about books and to help this along he tells Guy that everybody in every book does not exist.

bella said...

It could be an accident and they can be just curious. If they are firemen, they should be able to read them. It will then prove that books are stupid and boring and so they will return them and burn them.

Kc P said...

Books are so complecated and people have become so shallow that it is hard for them to understand. People fear books because they dont get them.

bella said...

I think that Beatty meant what he was saying to Montag, because it was casual and not tense. His speech didnt seem planned, but it came naturally.

SophiaA said...

It is their job to destroy them, but wouldn't the government be concerned with the firmen getting too involved with the books? Going with what Thomas said, what would happen if the firemen read the books and began to really like them and revealed them to other people in their society?

emmaw said...

I think it is interesting that the firemen can take home the books for 24 hours. I think that it sparks their curoisty, or deter them from reading depending upon the person, and the book. And by being a fireman you have acess to books in one of the only real legal ways to read them. I believe that some firemen might truely enjoy burning the books, and have no desire to read them. But some firemen might be in their job so they can have the oppertunity to read.

AHOLMES! said...

I agree with Courtney. When Beatty gives the speech to Montag, it does sound really rehearsed and like he's said it many times before. I think that he knows that there's a point in every fireman's life where their going to get curious whats inside the books and what the reasons are that lie within them for why they are burning them.

HunterK said...

I think that the fireman are allowed to bring home books because they are surrounded by them in their daily lives and are obviously curious about them. However I do not think this is the best thing to do. It is like letting a police officer who constantly arrests drug dealers try heroin, just because he is curious. Soon that police officer may become addicted just like a fireman may become addicted to books. After all, curiosity killed the cat.

ruthp said...
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AHOLMES! said...

Do you guys think that Mildred will turn Montag in for having all of these books?

Thomasm said...

i think when beatty gave his speech it was full of sarcasm irony and he is passionate almost regretful tone
he defends equalization of society while he remains educated
job of being inferior
if you dont want your house burned hide books if you dont want house built hide wood and nails
personally i think beatty was in the past a reader and probably got caught and therefore killed his family and his hatred turned towards books but he denounces use of books as weapons while he uses them freely as weapons."loaded gun" would be a book educated mind and he uses this to manipulate beatty

SophiaA said...

I think Mildred is when so surprised when she sees that Montag has books because she fears that Montag would get her involved in the books and she doesn't want to get involved in that.

MariahF said...
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bella said...

Maybe the books Guy has been hiding are from a long time ago. They might be passed on down from his ancestors from many generations ago where they were allowed to have books. He is hiding them because he is curious.

ruthp said...

If their is a reward for turning people in then I think that Mildred will turn him in. DO you think that their is a reward for turning people in?

EvanS said...

I think Montag got his books in the ventilator from previous fires and that he has been stockpiling these books over time. When he shows these to Mildred, she freaks out and does not know what to do and she is scared that Beatty is at the door again. Is Mildred curious about books also or does she not even want to have anything to do with them?

trey said...

I think everybody who is a fireman goes through what Montag is going through but when they read a book it is boring to them so they continue being a fireman. That might be why they all have the same personality, so they dont like books no matter what.

Jacob WR said...

I wonder- why does Beatty say that all people and events in books are fictional? Is he 'in the know', per se, that books contain real information, or is he being manipulated by the government, which is trying to control the knowledge of the people?

nicoles said...

I think that a fireman should be allowed to keep the books they collect for twenty four hours because they could analyze the text to see if it posed a threat to their "non thinking" society. Or at least that was what the author intended.

MariahF said...

i agree that the speech Beatty gave to Montag seemed really rehearsed.
do you think that he has said it so many times before to him self, as his own rational?

HunterK said...

I think Beatty gave the lecture to Montag because in a way it is a right of passage to a fireman. I bet Beatty received that same speech from his fire-chief when he was young, just as he gives the speech now.

AHOLMES! said...

In response to Paul's question, i think Beatty is trying to tell him that books still do not belong in society and that onvce you try reading these books,l then you will figure out why you really are burning them. He also tells Montag that being a fireman is really a glorious job and that thewre really isnt anything better than it and most fireman come to an uncertain point in their career wondering if what their doing is right.

SophiaA said...

I think somebody may have killed Clarisse and her family because they are so odd and are considered inferior to everybody else. The government wants to get rid of the inferior people probably to try and create a perfect society.

katelynm said...

I think that Clarisse's death resembles the end of Montag's old life and the start of his new one.

Thomasm said...

Bradbury uses the subconscious actions of hands to portray Montag's feelings and desires. This is similar to Macbeth and Lady Macbeth's relationship to their hands.

trey said...

I think after Montag reads a book he will become more curious about other books and he will become addicted to them.

Kc P said...

mildred will definantly turn montag in. her whole world collapses when she sees the books. she always though she and montag were a boring law abiding couple but everything is turned upside down when she sees the books and montag goes kind of crazy on her

ruthp said...

Do you think that the government has jobs for people, where they kill people like Clarisse? This would be a job kind of like Montag's job of burning books

mmoritz said...

I'm not sure if this has been covered, but...Do you think it important to the plot of the story that neither Mildred, nor Montag can remember when they met?

emmaw said...

I believe that by allowing them to have the books for 24 hours, it takes some of the risk and mystery out of the books. Just like with the street racing being allowed with the teens then, by making it okay to do it takes the allure out of it. Its the idea of some one saying that an action is not allowed that make the person want to do it.

EvanS said...

I don't think that Montag will burn the books after he reads them because he does not want to give up all of the books but Montag may burn the books because he will have the knowledge inside his head which they cannot take away.

nicoles said...

The speech that Beatty gave Montag was most definitely a standard approach to convincing firefighters that their job was ethical. This is because he gave off the vibe that this eventually happenened to all firefighters, and that this lecture had to be given to all of them eventually.

Also, I do not think that Montag will be able to burn the books because he has already partially fueled his desire to learn, and when he discovers the great secrets of the texts he reads, he probably will become addicted and not be able to give it up.

AHOLMES! said...

In response to Alex, well i think that Clarisse's classmates might have killed her. SHe was always talking about how violent they were, and how they killed like 10 of her friends. I think she might have been scared that they would kill her too because she thought so differently from everyone else. She was like a book amongest society; the books were different and challenged the system, so they had them burned: Clarisse thought in a way that no one should, so they might have killed her.

Thomasm said...
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katelynm said...

I think Sophia is right about how the government wants there to be a perfect society. Just like in the book the Giver, they people that run the society want everything to be perfect.

Kc P said...

i agree with katelyn about clarisse's death. her life has closed but montags life has opened in a sense to way more complicated things then before

nicoles said...

I really think that it is interesting that neither Mildred or Montag remember where they met... I think that it shows they have a lack of emotional attatchment to each other. Perhaps they don't remember because they were forced to marry, regardless of they had feeling for each other.

ruthp said...

How do you not remember how you met your husband or wife? THey must no be connected or they have had their memory erased somehow.

Thomasm said...

UTOPIA

katelynm said...

I think that Mildred will betray Montag because he had secrets hidden from his wife, but she will not turn him in because that will make her vulnerable to go to jail as well.

EvanS said...

The plot of the story in which mildred does not remember where she and Montag met is important because it indicates that people in this society do not care about each other and only about entertainment and being happy.

HunterK said...

I think it is very significant that neither Montag nor Mildred remember how they met. Whenever my parent have guests over for dinner they tell sappy stories about how they met. The other couples can respond with their own stories as well. Because they can't remember I don't think they are really in love.

SophiaA said...

THey really aren't connected and it seems almost as though their marriage was arranged. Montag is always so caught up in his job and Mildred is always so concerned with watching television. It is almost as though somebody else is thinking for her and she is like a robot. She never has deep and intellectual thoughts. She just take life as it comes and never really stops to think about anything.

emmaw said...

In response to Mrs Moritz's question, i think it is very significant that nieither of them can rememeber how they met, and is proof of their distance. An important even like the time you met your spouse is not easily forgotten now. But in this time peoples brains are used to a minimum level probably effecting their memory capability.

bella said...

The books might have also been over the past 11 years and he has taken them from the houses that he has burned. He has stored them up there and haven't looked up there until Clarisse asked him if he was happy or not. He realizes that he isn't happy because the books have been on his mind ever since he stole his 1st book (if he stole a book.)

ruthp said...

I think that it's interesting that the TV shows that Mildred watches are notning exciting and like the books they must be made to not offend people. Why do they band the books if there used to be TV shows that could offend people?

AHOLMES! said...

I dont think the mildred believed him when he said that he was sick. I kind of disagree with what some people said because i think she did care that he thought he was sick, but not for the right reasons. SHe was worried that if he didnt go to work that the firemen would come to her houise and that both of the would get into a lot of trouble with the firemen. She also weants him to go to work so that he can make her more and more money so that she can put up the wall that she wants in the house, so she's really using just using them.

EvanS said...
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Thomasm said...

Montag's hands become a symbol of his rebellion, will and moral imperative. This is similar to Mildred's unconscious overdose. Montag later on compulsively washes his hands at the fire station in an attempt to cleanse his guilt which is clearly similar to Lady Macbeth as both feel their hands are "gloved in blood."

katelynm said...

What Ruth said about not offending anyone... that is true because they illiminated Clarisse and they are making the world perfect.

Jacob WR said...

As people have said before, it is likely that Montag will develop a curiosity and a thirst for knowledge similar to that of Clarisse and her "odd" family due to the books that Beatty allows him to read.
The woman who burned herself along with her books said "We shall this day light such a candle, by God's grace, in England, as I trust shall never be put out." This resembles the seed of curiosity, this idea, that plants itself both within Montag's mind and the collective consciousness of society, and grows into a hunger, a drive to learn all that can be learned. I expect that we will see this phenomenon much more over the course of the events of Fahrenheit 451.

Also, this connects to Macbeth and The Lord of the Flies in many ways. The books act as a catalyst that initiates Montag's seeking knowledge, just as Duncan's murder acted as a catalyst initiating the unleashing of evil events throughout Scotland, and Simon's death tore apart what was left of the boys' morality.

Kc P said...

I agree with sophia about mildred. she doesn't really question anything, or she does but doesn't wait for an answer. she is always putting words in montags mouth. she doesn't let any one think for themselves because she is used to having controll over the people around her like montag and her 'family'.

MariahF said...

i think that the fact that Mildred and Montag don't remember how or where they met just shows that personal relationships are not important in there society.

i completely agree with Bronson. the old man is probably a very important part of montag's past and because he thinks of the old man so much, the old man must have given him something or made him realize something important.
it sorta seems like Montag forgot about the man and pushed him out of his mind until he talked with Clarisse for the first time.

trey said...

I think the sports were mentioned by Beatty to show Montag all the good things other than books. I think Beatty was trying to remind Montag of all the happiness out there even though there was really none.

emmaw said...

Reffering to Sophia and Katelyn about the perfect society, i think the government would rather shut out peoples oppinions and ignore anyone speaking out against their way of life. Its like the people there close their eyes and pretend everything is okay in their perfect society. But occasionaly someone like Clarisse comes along and opens her eyes to the things everyone just ignores or believes is right.

AHOLMES! said...

I think that the school system is sort of brainwashing them in a way. If you think about it they aren't reqally doing much of anything in school, their just playing sports, watching tv, and when their in history class only one kid answers all the questions so their not learning anything their being taught the way society is going to be.

Kc P said...

jacobs comment was good. i agree that montag giving in and showing mildred the books is the turning point in the story.

HunterK said...

I don't think that Mildred cares about Montag at all and vice a versa. Montag is always caught up in his job and he cares about it. I bet he can remember his first fire. The same must be true for Mildred. She obviously cares more about television than Montag, and most likely remembers how someone on one of her shows met but not how they did.

SophiaA said...

They do have a lot of sports in school but they also have "transcription history". What exactly is transcription history? Do they actually study the past in this class because if they did are they really teaching them what happened because mostly everybody doesn't seem to know things of hte past like what the firemen really did.

katelynm said...

Because everyone is only learning about sports and television, they are going to run out of people who know anything about the world. Then they will need people who know about the earth and more important things but it will be too late. What will their society be like then? What will happen to them?

ruthp said...

Who are the teachers? Are they taught specially to lie to the students?

Thomasm said...

Why must teachers be digital?

SophiaA said...

I agree with Connor about the society becoming lazy. I also think that books were challenging the system where they were trying create a perfect society, so they had to be censored and taken away.

emmaw said...

i think its interesting how there is such a small range of emotions people feel in Fahrenheit 451. why is it so rare for the characters to feel an intense emotion? What causes these?

EvanS said...

If children in schools learned anything about history, they would learn history that is not true such as the first firemen was Benjamin Franklin which is not true.

mmoritz said...

Ruth-- I think the teachers come into the classroom and turn on a screen. I think the teachers are very impersonal and don't really teach, just facilitate. How would you like that?

bella said...

Mildred is so caught up with electronics. She has her little shells in her ears and her TV parlor with 3 almost 4 screens. It took over her life and it is all she thinks about now.

Thomasm said...
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Jacob WR said...

In response to Sophia's comment:
I think that's a very good point. They do not learn what happened in the past, because, as is often said, history is written by the victors, and this dystopian civilization is built upon the idea that offending any group is an offense in itself, and the only way to eliminate this is to eliminate objectivity itself.
So, I don't think they learn HISTORY, especially as the government has already demonstrated that they can change history, when Montag views the 'original design' for the fire department, which is completely skewed.

ruthp said...

mmoritz- That would really suck to have teachers do that and I don't think that I would go to school.

AHOLMES! said...

I think Mildred has got some serious issues...I think she's pretty much addicted to taking her pills and she listens to some device when she goes to bed. Margo's right, she's never really encountered a situation where theres a different way of thinking invovled like Montag has. Montag thought just like everyone else until he met Clarisse who really just opened his eyes to how there is so much more to life than what everyone sees.

katelynm said...

I would not like it if our teachers didn't do anything. I would think it would be so boring to stare at a screen all day and then go play sports but do nothing else all day. How do the kids not fall asleep? Don't they feel guilt to not be learning anything for their whole life?

SophiaA said...

In response to Thomas's queston, I think the teachers are digital because they can not taught and be asked questions by the students. If a student was unsure of what they were being taught they wouldn't be able to ask the teacher why or how which is what the government wants (for people just to know straight facts and not how or why).

HunterK said...

In response to Ruth's question I do not think that the teachers are specially trained to teach lies to the children. I believe that the teachers were taught the same things in their youth and simply regurgitate the information back to the students.

Kc P said...

conner said something really good in the discusion adout society becoming so impactient and add that everything is shortened so they can keep people's attension. i think this was one of the things where bradbury was wrong in predicting the future. mivies seem to get longer and longer instead of shorter. but old movies have the actors anms in the beginning of the movie but now it is at the end beacause no one cares about that stuff.

MariahF said...

in response to Emma's question, i don't think there is anything in the society to feel strongly about. they just eat, watch TV, and play sports. there are no thrills or downs, it's just a monotone life. they've lost all reason to feel, so they don't.

mmoritz said...

Do you think that your teachers lie to you?

Thomasm said...

Beatty says they fill people with useless facts so full that they feel brilliant but are drones in a way and just a reciting dictionary of useless information

EvanS said...

I agree with Thomas in which Montag tries to excessicely wash his hands from the smell of gasoline which repulsed him just like how Macbeth and Lady Macbeth wash their hands to get the guilt off.

bella said...

The teachers are almost like the Hound. They are "programmed" to show movies and give answers not teach and have the kids learn. They are told what to do and they do it. They probably dont even think for themselves. That is just like the Hound. The Hound is specially programmed to guard and do bad.

ruthp said...

I don't think that our teachers lie to us! They make us think and tell us how it is.

mmoritz said...
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katelynm said...

I think that everything is pointless in their lives. As Bronson said it is a pointless society really. You aren't allowed to learn, or think, or do anything other than watch TV(pointless) or play sports(also fun but only for entertainment.)

EvanS said...

Beatty also says that people on the highway are going somewhere somewhere nowhere which indicates that people do not know the purpose of anything they do.

AHOLMES! said...

I think that govenment is either underestimating the citizens of this city, and thinks that their so stupid that they cant handle anything more than this, or government is scared of what people could do with all of the knowledge that they could be giving them. I think it would be more likely the second one because of their burning of the books, city leaders are really just worried about what will happen if the people have too much information.

bella said...

Can even the government think for themselves???? Or are they being controlled by something greater???

trey said...

To stare at a screen all day would be so boring. You wouldnt be involved at all because you could just go to sleep and do nothing. You wouldnt even learn because you would zone out

mmoritz said...

Maybe we tell you lies to get you to think... :) Do you think I censor/preview things (text, films, etc) before I give them to you???

Thomasm said...

Maybe thinking is not real. Beatty talks about how people dont really think and you get rid of 2 sides and people forget there is war and that philosophy and people take apart a TV and feel like a genius but dont equate the universe while students go to school and learn useless things and become drones.

ruthp said...

That's true, you could lie to make us think, but it does make us think about things differently. I think that you do censor things, like the Macbeth movies that might have uneccesary violence and other things.

Kc P said...

in responce to mrs. mositz's questions, i think most things are not censored at school because while our parents sheild us from certain thing our teacher's jobs is to open up the world to us.

bella said...

Our teacher might lie to us, but they shouldn't. If they do, that would be wrong because then everybodyu would be lying, because if we learn something false, we will repeat that to our classmates and be lying to them all because of the teachers.

AHOLMES! said...

mmoritz--yeah of course you sensor things. your sensoring this blog right now ha. but yeah i mean if there was something extremely innappropriate in this class, of course your going to get rid of it or most likely not bring it in here in the first place. Just like the Macbeth videos, you watched those before you showed them to us.

HunterK said...

I do not think that teachers knowingly lie to us, but maybe the history they teach isn't completely true. Maybe the truth has been stretched in order to make historical figures look invincible. Like Jacob said, "History is written by the victor", and maybe the government has exaggerated the truth over the years.

Thomasm said...

Yes you do i think so mrs. moritz. Such as Macbeth videos you told us violence was coming up and told people to close their eyes. Obviously all the guys payed more attention.

Jacob WR said...

In response to Mrs. Moritz's question-
I don't think that my teachers lie to me, per se. If there's a fact posed during any class that I don't trust, I look it up, and tell my teacher that I believe that fact to be wrong. This is the advantage of living in this society, where information is free and available to all. (Though, granted, some of this information, due to the rapid propagation of all of it over the internet, is corrupted or blatantly false. *cough cough wikipedia cough* Even so, I don't think that stating things which are believed to be true, but are false, is lying.)
But I do think that the teachers in Fahrenheit 451, though they aren't lying, per se, as they are probably blinded by the same veil of ignorance that this society as a whole is, but they are likely propagating false facts, due to the government's manipulation of knowledge and information in the world.

SophiaA said...

Mrs. Moritz, I do believe that you censor some things but only to a certain extent. You do not censor everything that you have to in order to get us to think and find the meaning of whatever we are reading, watching, etc.

Bronson, I do think teachers are censored because they are not allowed to give their opinions on certain things like religion and everybody has their own beliefs and opinions.

ruthp said...

Is the government censored from everything like their people? Do they just control everyone and they think for themselves?

Kc P said...

i think students are always apalled when teachers lie to them because they are veiwed as ceridible sources of knowledge.

katelynm said...

We don't have to believe what teacher's tell us like in math teachers make mistakes and sometimes they don't catch them but I don't think that we have to believe teachers like Connor said because if we did we would be relying on them and we have to become out own person.

bella said...

Ruth---well then who is controlling them???

EvanS said...

Teachers may censor some media and books before they are given to the students because they may contain things that are not considered relevant or appropriate. This may be due to what teachers are allowed to say.

emmaw said...

I think its near impossible to not encounter some form of censorship in the media today. Unless you go out and make your own movie and hand it out to people, there are going to be some forms of censorship. Such as to see a movie, in school it must be approved by the teachers, at home your parents can censor what you watch. TV stations arent just going to show anything that they want, even in movie theaters R movies are censored from anyone under 17.

Thomasm said...

Mildred is evil. She likes to run over cats and dogs.

kelseyw said...

A lot of good points were made-
I think that the firemen are allowed to take home a book for 24 hours because a) they may want to know what they are dystroying and b) while some firemen are totally absorbed in the flames and kerosene, some may want to see why these terrible paper things are so hated and shunned. Did Montag have any doubts about his job before Clarisse? Did Beatty have a spell like montag's when he was young, and he doubted his proffesion? Or does he just have experience with dealing with these "lost souls"?

Who is the government? Can they think for themselves, are they like some sort of elite group of hand picked scholars, the black sheep in a herd of mindless zombies? Or are they like normal citizens that just claim to be smart....??