Monday, October 6, 2008

3rd Hour Live Blogging--Macbeth Final Discussion

Here we go...

95 comments:

MelissaC said...
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JackW said...

I definitely think that the relationship between Lady Macbeth and Macbeth changes dramatically throughout the plot. Lady Macbeth at first is the more controlling of the two but later in the plot the roles of the two switch. I think the plot could have been different when as Macbeth starts innocent and becomes crazier, Lady Macbeth starts crazy and becomes innocent.

Elaine's Blog said...

Well, killing is like a poison, and once you start killing, you can't really stop. Such as Jack in Lord of the Flies, he killed one pig and kept killing other pigs... thoughts?

emeraldo said...

At first it seems like Lady is wearing the pants in this relationship because of the whole Duncan murder. But then once Macebth is king he gets powerhungry or more power hungry than he was and he takes over the husband role. I think if Lady had stayed the controlling spouse Macbeth might have started to feel really guilty because i think he wouldn't have wanted that power as much since he wasnt in the most powerful position.

christinah said...

i think lady macbeth would want banquo dead. just like haley said she would do anything to get him out of the way so she could be queen.

Blakes said...

I agree that Banquo would not have been killed. One reason that Macbeth was so concerned about Banquo was that he was there when Macbeth was told that he was going to be king. If Macbeth had not been the one that would kill to be king, then he might not be as concerned about who night blame him.

JackW said...

I also agree with melissa that had Lady Macbeth stopped or prevented Macbeth from "wading deeper into the river of blood" then the plot would have been much different.

MelissaC said...

The relationship between Lady Macbeth and Macbeth definitely drifted throughout the story. Macbeth was more focused on killing those who were suspicious of him, instead of paying attention to her and keeping her updated.

If Lady Macbeth had remained the controlling spouse, I think she would have stopped Macbeth from killing Banquo and all the other people. She would have stopped Macbeth from killing after killing Duncan.

paigel said...

The role between husband and wife changes when Lady Macbeth is no longer the dominant person in the relationship. At the beginning of the play Lady Macbeth always told Macbeth that he wasn't strong and she always seemed to dominate him. Towards the end of the play though the guilt and reality of the situation got to Lady Macbeth and she lost her controlling attitude. Macbeth became the stronger person and Lady Macbeth was the one who relied on him. I think that if Lady Macbeth had stayed the dominant character in the relationship then things would have been different because even after Macbeth had been crowned King she would have still wanted more power and more lives could have been lost due to her craving of dominance.

JackW said...

Like Emerald said and i think it would have bveen interesting to see if Lady Macbeth had maintained her role as the controlling spouse then would have Macbeth been the one to commit suicide rather than vice versa?

Ally C said...

In the beginning,Lady Macbeth was the pushing force behind the murder of Banquo, encouraging her husband to commit crimes to gain power. However, as the story progresses, you see Macbeth stepping up and taking the lead. Not only that, but Macbeth began to leave his wife out of his plots, as he didn't even tell her that he planned to murder Banquo. I think that if Lady Macbeth had stayed in power, she might not have grown so far apart from Macbeth. I think that she might not have commited suicide if Macbeth had not taken over because while Macbeth was spending his time making plans to kill other people, Lady Macbeth had time to slow down and think of the gravity of her and her husband's actions. Macbeth was able to occupy his mind and not let the guilt of murder catch up to him.

bryce said...

At first, Lady Macbeth wanted Macbeth to murder Duncan and she pushed him to do the deed when he didn't want to. However, later on in the play, Macbeth started going crazy and started to comitt murders without Lady Macbeth telling him too. Therefore, their roles as husband and wife switched after the first murder. I believe this happened because Lady Macbeth changed Macbeth after the first murder.

christinah said...
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AaronF said...
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MelissaC said...

I'm not sure that Lady Macbeth could've been the third murderer. Although the thoughts are valid, I don't think she was physically strong enough to assist in the actually stabbing of Banquo. Not to mention that she probably would not have been able to disguise her womanly features.

christinah said...

i don't think their relationship changes, she just becomes more insecure and insane. she just didn't seem to command him anymore.
macbeth seemed to take on her personality too. it rubbed off on him too. so she didn't need to be as controlling.

emeraldo said...

Like Emma said Lady Macbeth kind of seemed to back off once they were king and queen and Macbeth just got more paranoid.

paigel said...

I agree with Elaine. I think that once Macbeth got his first taste of power. He began to want more and more of it. Causing him to not use his better judgement and kill people who were close to him like Banquo. I think he got sidetracked by the thought of ruler and this caused him to commit terrible acts.

JackW said...

Ally when you said that Lady Macbeth was the force behind the murder of Banquo did you mean behind the murder of Duncan? I agree with your point that Lady Macbeth had the time after the murder of Duncan to let the action really sink in while Macbeth just took off and became more and more paranoid about everyone and had the murders to occupy himself.

Blakes said...

Sort of like what drew said, how once MAcbeth took the throne that she could sort of control it and get what she wanted. But i think that if that was what she planned, that it backfired. She started to feel guilty of helping Macbeth get to that throne, and all the trouble that came with becoming king and queen

kylees said...

I think Lady Macbeth regained some of her sanity when she started getting left out Macbeth's plans. She was blinded by her greed while she was on the inside in the middle of it, but as soon as she was pushed to the outside, she could think more clearly about all of it. If she would have been still involved in the plans though, I think she would have kept Macbeth going with his killing spree. Their relationship changed because Macbeth finally took control of his life instead of living it by his wifes rules. She could not handle this. She was not used to it and suddenly she felt useless. Macbeth was completely at fault for her death because he left her behind.

MelissaC said...

I don't think Macbeth felt any guilt anymore because he has killed so many people by the end that he denies his own guilt from himself. Inside, he knows he is guilty, but he keeps persuading himself that he is doing the right thing (for his own sake).

JackW said...

But i think Macbeth would have had to definitely be the weaker of the two in the relationship or else he would have been stronger to resist Lady Macbeth forcing him into murdering Duncan which in time would have prevented him from murdering other people causing him in turn to be killed.

Ally C said...

I also think that Lady Macbeth would have been able to calm some of her husband's nervs. After he met with the three witches and talked to the four appritaions, he was obviously very worried about everyhthing he heard in their prophicies. Lady Macbeth might have told him that he was being foolish and not to pay too much attention to what they said. In the beginning, you see that she is always calming him down and helping him to not go too deeply into his mad thoughts. I believe that if she had stayed in sync with him, they would have been able to help eacher not go crazy with guilt.

christinah said...

she all of a sudden feels guilty because maybe she is the third murderer and she does have blood on her hands.

AaronF said...

the death of Lady Macbeth was from the guilt of killing Duncan. as Lady Macbeth says she would have killed Duncan had it not been for the way he slept. so in a sense she died because of her invovement in the murdar.

emeraldo said...

I agree with michael that Lady had the guilt that she pushed down inside of her and when she isnt the controlling person she doesnt have something to keep her mind on so that guilt shows for the first time.

Blakes said...

I agree with kylee that she started losing it once macbeth left her out of his plans, and took control of his own life. She wanted to be a part of everything that was happening, and would go to the edge to get in on it. This is one reason that lady macbeth could be the third murderer.

Elaine's Blog said...

I agree with Kylee, but if Lady Macbeth continued being the "leader" of the relationship, I don't think that Macbeth would have continued his killing spree since Lady Macbeth got what she wanted.. which was queen. Also, to what Drew is saying right now, I agree with him that the three crazy old ladies told Macbeth these proficies to possibly overthrow Duncan if they did not liked him. Thoughts?

Brian A said...

melissa, i disagree. i believe that macbeth has just become so insane that he doesnt register that lady macbeth has died. he doesnt care about anything but staying on the throne now that hes there.

bryce said...

I agree with elaine about killing. Once you do something once, it's much easier to do it again. I think that was the case with Macbeth. He was nervous and scared at first when Lady Macbeth told him to murder King Duncan, but when he actually killed him and got away with it, he realized that murdering wasn't very hard. That led him to three more murders.

AaronF said...
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MelissaC said...

I believe that the three witch's prophecies were true. Macbeth did become thane of Cawdor. But then I think they were indirect and somewhat deceiving with Macbeth becoming king since Macbeth had to plot and kill Duncan in order to become king. I think the witches told Macbeth his fate for (somewhat) their own entertainment because they're evil and wanted to watch Macbeth fall from grace.

kylees said...

I like Christina's thought that maybe Lady Macbeth was the third murder and that it why she suddenly felt so guilty even though she said that she was not feeling guilty for Duncan's murder. The quote by Lady Macbeth that says "I tell you again, Banquo's buried. He cannot come out on's grave," supports this theory because she seems super worried about Banquo when she was supposedly not involved in his murder. So maybe she was the third murderer and helped kill Banquo.

Blakes said...

A connection to LOF, is that lady macbeth's character is like the plot line of LOF. Everything was going good when the two groups were still together. But then once they split, bad things like simon and piggy's deaths happened. (those two desaths could be similar to that of banquo and lady macduff's deaths).

Elaine's Blog said...

I agree with Aaron, but does she really die with insanity, or dddoes she die of the fact and thought of guilt that started overcoming her later after Duncan's murder?

Brian A said...

i believe something doesnt get easier the more you do it, you just have experience so you know how to go about it and you can tell yourself that youve donr it before and that helps a lot.

christinah said...

maybe lady macbeth killed the wife of the thane of fife. because when she was sleep walking she said " the thane of fife had a wife. where is she now?"
act 5
scene 1
pg 163

katief said...

It changed from a group effort to one sided. Macbeth became more controling and obsessive when it came to his crown. Lady Macbeth was the instigator but, Macbeth took over the plans. This became evident in the plot to kill Banquo and Fleance. After this, their relationship suffers and she realizes she has been excluded from his plans. Once this reality occurs, she tries desperately to enter these plans once again, driving her insane.

emeraldo said...

I think Macbeth got so accustomed sort of to death after he killed duncan, banquo, and Macduffs family so when Lady died it was just like ok well, thats just one more person who is dead.

JackW said...

I was just looking back on the text even before Lady Macbeth persuades Macbeth to murder Duncan where Duncan names Malcom to be his successor. In Act I scene 4, Macbeth says "Stars, hide your fires! Let not light see my black and deep desires". This quote shows that Macbeth immediately has murderous thoughts toward Duncan that he is trying to repress. Then maybe Lady Macbeth didn't have as much to do with the murder as we think. He may have even committed the murder of Duncan without Lady Macbeth pushing him to do it but she just gives him the "final push over the edge" which allowed the events afterward to happen.

AaronF said...
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Elaine's Blog said...

I agree with Kylees, and if Lady Macbeth was possibly the third murderer, than could she have possibly and purposely let Fleance flee and letting the prophicy of the three witches come true?

paigel said...

I agree with Melissa, I think there was some truth to the witch's prophecies but also out of their cruel nature they wanted to see the corruption of Macbeth. I think they knew he would try and take matters into his own hands and in doing so, make the situation worse than it would have been naturally.

Brian A said...

christina, that may mean that she was wondering who killed her. after all they were both noble ladies and so may have been friends and lady macbeth might be wanting some company since macbeth is away killing everyone.

Ally C said...

I think it is a great question... If the witches had never said anything to Macbeth, would he have ever become king? Or was his becoming king simply the result of the prophicy of the witches? I think that if the witches had never said anything to Macbeth, he would not have murdered Dunan to become king. I don't think that the thought of killing the king to come to power would have popped into Macbeth's head otherwise.

Blakes said...
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MelissaC said...

I think, whether the witches told him or not, Macbeth would've become king. However, I think Macbeth would have become king differently, instead of killing his way into king. He would not have thought to kill Duncan randomly.

I believe that the Apparitions were true, but that the witches and Hecate made it this way. Macduff wasn't born naturally from a woman. And the Birnam Hill did "move" before battle broke out and Macbeth was killed.

emeraldo said...

did Macbeth tell Lady about the apparitions because she might not have even known that he was supposed to be defeated so there woulld have been no reason for her to let him go. And did Fleance have anything to do with Macbethys defeat?

bryce said...

What do you all think about the witches? I don't believe that they can see the future, but the reason their prophecy came true was because Macbeth and Lady Macbeth believed it to be true. I think the witches knew that Macbeth would believe their prophecy and that he would change the future to carry out the prophecy.

christinah said...

his fate was to kill people because the witches said he would be king, and it took that to get there. other wise he wouldn't be king.

answer to cali's question:
either way if someone tells you you're going to get an a
either way that you feel is best you're going to get an a on the test.

JackW said...

I agree with Emerald that if Macbeth hadn't gone insane with killing people then he would have felt more for the death of his wife rather than just done nothing.
And John just said in the circle that Hecate scolded the witches for telling Macbeth about those prophecies. It just brings up the question of how would the plot have differed had the three witches not told Macbeth of these prophecies.
Also, Cali just said in the cirlce that if someone told you that you were going to do well on a test that you would study alot to make that "prophecy" come true. The same thing goes for Macbeth and the witches. They told him positive things were going to happen to him so he did everything in his power to make them come true (i.e. murdering everyone)

emeraldo said...

if the witches were actually witches and they actualy had powers then i think he would have become king but in a different way but i doubt he would have if the witches didnt have powers and the had never talked to him.

kylees said...

I agree with Melissa that the witches only told Macbeth the prophecies to watch him struggle. They are witches after all. So why would there have to be any more reason for their actions than purely just to be evil. It kind of relates to their quote "Fair is foul and foul is fair," because they see it as only fair to tell Macbeth his prophecy, but really it turns out to be foul because he goes so far to make it come true. So it was both fair and foul.

Elaine's Blog said...

I agree with you Bryce. And as Cali said, it's like saying that you are going to get an A on the test tomorrow, so what's the purpose of studying. Therefore, I believe the witches made ideas up just to possibly see if they could control some miserable soul to follow their lead in "future telling"

christinah said...

Bryce i kinda of agree with you too.
it is true that they believed it and that's a really good point.

Brian A said...

what do you think would have happened if the witches hadnt told him the prphecies?

emeraldo said...

for calis test thing would you really do anything you wouldnt normally do to make it come true beacuse i know if someone just randomly came up to me and was like you are gonna get an a on the test, i would be like ummm ok freak
jk not like that but i still wouldnt pay attention to them

bryce said...

I also have another question about the witches. Why did they tell Macbeth of the prophecies? Even if they can foresee the future, why not let it be and let the future reveal itself when the time comes?

Blakes said...

well brian, i dont think he would have even regarded becoming king. macbeth was just told he was the thane of cawdor and is being called a war hero by the entire scotish army. he would probably be thinking life cant get better

Elaine's Blog said...

Than, if the witches hadn't told Macbeth the profecy, there wouldn't be a play Macbeth considering that Duncan would still be alive and Malcolm would continue being the sucessor... thoughts?

paigel said...

Kylee, that is a great point about the "Fair is foul and foul is fair" quote. I think this quote shows how nothing is ever quite as it seems, and things are always changing. Also this quote shows there are good and bad sides to everything.

JackW said...

In response to christina: but what if you tried you hardest to get all the questions wrong so you could prove that prediction to be false? then it would be incorrect. But if someone had told you for example that you were going to die today, then wouldnt you do everything you could to prevent yourself from dying? I think it all depends on the context of the "prophecy". If it says that you are going to be better off in life then you would want to prove it right because you want to be happy and you would do anything to make it true. However if the prophecy predicts having a negative effect on you, you would very much want to prove it wrong because that would be in your best interest.

MelissaC said...

To what Cali was saying, Macbeth believed the witches after he became thane of Cawdor, which the witches said he would. But at first, he and Banquo joked about their prophecy, thinking that it was absurd.

emeraldo said...

ok so i just saw the movie eagle eye and this computer like feels the need to kill all these leaders and thats kind of how macbeth is he is killing for a different reason but he like tries to kill all the potentially powerful people around

paigel said...

Brian, I think that if the witches had not told Macbeth of the prophecies then things would have just played out naturally. I think that Macbeth still would have become King but under much different circumstances.

katief said...

When Macbeth has been told about this bright future, does he question what Drew explained? Could there be something in his heart that wanted it to be so, or were the ideas planted there by the witches? If people are given the opportunity to be evil will they?

Elaine's Blog said...

I agree with you Paige, and how everything that may seem good is not actually all good and well. This kind of connects with real life and how everyone wears masks to cover up their true feelings.

Brian A said...

yah, i agree with emerald. the fact that macbeth believed the witches implies he is extremely gullible.so, he is susceptible to nearly any suggestion so that once he was told by his wife to get the throne he believed it the best thing to do and carried it out to the point of idiocy.

Ally C said...

I think that John makes a good point. Although one might know that they are 100% guilty and deserve to be condemed, they will find a way to defend themselves, perhaps with excuses or pointing the finger of blame to someone else.

JackW said...

Elaine i think that of course Malcom would have become Duncan's successor. Had the witches not foretold Macbeth of this then he most likely would have still been angry about not becoming king but he would have most likely repressed those feelings and just dealt with it.

kylees said...

Brian, if the witches hadn't told Macbeth the prophecy, then it never would have crossed his mind, and he would have been happy with the honor that he had received from Duncan.

Elaine's Blog said...

Katie, it depends on the opportunity given to a person. If this is the second opportunity for this person to do something evil, than it turns into a poison which the person will gladly take. However, if it someone who is doing something evil for the first time, than it might depend whether the person is actually someone full of loyalty or disgrace toward how they want to display their family greatness.

emeraldo said...

i like how cali has all these connections

emeraldo said...
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JackW said...

I think Macbeth has flaws in deciding what he wants and when he wants to get it. He wants to be crowned king. Had he took a more patient approach to becoming king who knows? Malcom could have gotten a very serious disease right after he became king and then Macbeth would get the throne without having to kill anyone.

Ally C said...

I personally believe that you won't be able to murder someone and lead a normal life wtih that knowledge. Altough Macbeth may have enjoyed his power for some time, was he able to really be proud of the way he obtained that control? The guilt cauht up with him, as it did Lady Macbeth.

kylees said...

Listening to Cali, it pretty much makes me think that there will always be a downfall to any evil action. There will always be repercussions. And like Hailey P is saying right now, there is better ways to see things and solve things. But Macbeth didn't think of it that way. So inevitably, he will come to a downfall eventually.

bryce said...

About the question asked in the circle, I think that militaristic/forceful strategies are the only way to abtain what you want. If you look at the most powerful countries in the world, they all have large and powerful militaries. All the strong countries have won wars and bully other countries to get what they want. It is the same case with Macbeth. Using force is not only nessacery, but it is the fastest and easiest way to get what you want. It may not be the right or nice strategy, but it works.

christinah said...

it's funny
how jillian said that what if mcain wanted to kill obama because he wanted to win so badly.

it was different then how you could kill people and get away with it easily

emeraldo said...

that is a good question do the witches just going around screwing with people or was there a reason for macbeth and it was a one time thing

JackW said...

In accordance to what Jillian just said of course there will be consequences to any violent response to a situation. Macbeth was killed by MAcduff because of all the people he murdered. Had he not killed anyone and had become king naturally he would have been fine and more...not dead.

Blakes said...

John was talking about how blood causes blood. This is showed directly in lady macbeth. She killed or at least had a small part in killing someone. Then, she couldnt get the "blood" off her hands, and ended up killing herself, causing more blood. so shakespeare tells a lesson, and then uses it directly in his play.

emeraldo said...

the violence thing i connected that to the world when people stage a bloody coup de tat

christinah said...

the witches gave macbeth a sense of false succesfulness.
he totally thought he was going to be king but he knew he wouldn't just become it over night
he knew he had to work to get there
even if he had to kill

Elaine's Blog said...

I agree with Blake, but the lesson that Shakespeare is possibly teaching us is what? The guilt of killing and the dangers of how it might overcome you emotions and make you kill yourself inn se=lf-suicide?

katief said...

A tragic hero is someone who needs to get their priorities straight! There are better ways to get what you want! I agree with Julian in that while you may want something very badly but, if you kill someone there are consequences to your actions! If you kill someone you will go to jail! Do you really want power that bad? Was it worth it for Macbeth to be king a little while and knowing his throne would go to Fleance?

emeraldo said...

this play does show how women are more dangerous than they seem its not just men

kylees said...

Bryce, I don't agree with you. There are plenty of countries that rule violently. And look at how we view them. We look down on them. In the U.S. however, we do not use such violent acts to keep our country strong, yet we still are.

Brian A said...

bryce, look at britain. if tat is the only type of strategy that works britain would not be alive. they are a pretty small place. they have survived and flourished because they take advantage of everything they can. they dominmated the world for a while because they recognized the importanc of the sea and built a huge navy with experienced sailors.

paigel said...

To the question Hailey J. just asked I think a major theme in Macbeth is the relationship between gender and power. Macbeth implies that masculinity is linked to ambition and violence and he says "undaunted mettle should compose nothing but males." Showing that males are usually the more dominant gender

emeraldo said...

How the circle was talking about the dagger, the women is like the brains and the man is like the body

JackW said...

I think the question of "why did the witches choose Macbeth" is a very interesting one. I think they may have chose him becuase he was definitely in a position to become great but did not have the strength on his own to reach the epitome of becoming great at the time which is becoming king.
I like Hailey J.'s connection of how the dagger could represent MAcbeth and then Lady Macbeth is the one holding the dagger. But later on she lets go of the dagger and Macbeth becomes more independent and doesnt need her in order to kill his victims.

Blakes said...

anish said that a bottle of poison looks fine until it says poison. this is just like "you cant judge a book by its cover". As many people are saying, the women in the elizabethan era were supposed to be pretty and nice, but in this play, are decieving. The witches were very decieving in telling macbeth his prophecy

Ally C said...

I think that the people in the circle make a great point. Lady Macbeth was controling Macbeth in the beginning. He was the dagger and she was the hand holding the dagger. It reminds me of the quote in My Big Fat Greek Wedding..."The man is the head of the house, but the woman is the neck. And she can turn the head any way she wants." It's not always true, but I just saw that connection and wanted to share it with you all. :)