Well, I think that when you hide in the dark for such a long time, people just kind of ignore you after awhile... but they know you are there. So Montag knew that Faber was around, but he didn't know where he was until he called. thoughts?
I think Montag was trying to convince Mildred and her friends that words can sound good even when they are not coming out of a TV. I agree with Paige that i thought their reaction was very interesting as well. I would have thought they would have been very shocked but they kinda act almost nonchalant about it. I also like Paige's connection to the book being like a gun in todays society. When someone pulls out a gun everyone would be really shocked in todays society.
I think Faber has stayed hidden for so long because he was a coward, as he called himself, and tried to remain hidden and discreet. Faber didn't call any attention to himself. Until now, he hasn't acted upon all his thoughts and how much he hates this established society.
I think that by the books being burned and his job going down the tubes, he has nothing to live for in his mind. Faber is an important character and for him to stay in the dark for so long means something to this society. He, like many others could be thinking these thoughts like Clarisse is but is too afraid to revolt without the help of others.
Brian, than how does Faber start reading to Montag to calm Montag down when Montag was walking home? Faber was reading to him... so Faber does have to have books.
i am surprised the ladies didn't have more of a reaction upon seeing the book. They are just kind of like oh a book, is that for your job? i assumed they would be freaking out and being like omg we have to report you!
He hasn't siad anything to anyone and probably hasn't been outside for a very long time. He is a rebel, but he is more of a coward. Most of the other rebels are like this too, which is why their ideas don't really get much interest
I agree with Emerald about what she said on the reaction of the ladies and the book that Montag showed them. Do you think the ladies reported him because at the end, they arrive at Montag's house to burn his house... thoughts?
Well, the thing with these women, is that as you can see by what they are talking about, and the way they speak of their husbands, and all, they must not care too much about anything. So, Emerald, I just don't think anything bothers them a lot.
Montag was so irritated about how shallow the ladies were. He had to try to show them that there was more, only to end up failing and getting his house burnt.
Montag wants to explain to the women the beauty of books, but they didn't understand. Later Faber tells him to calm down beacause he was one of them. Maontag wanted it wold to be different so he went looking for something different. The women are conetent with their mediocre lives. Faber explains that not everyone wants change.
mildreds friends are just as selfish as she is. the womenm doesn't even love her kids it's sad. i don't think mthat wil ever happen in our generation. i would feel guilty for not loving my kids. i could never imagine.
Jillian's little quote is absolutely contrary to truth. Faith is the basis of belief. Faith is a human virtue that is ultimately one of the separating factors between animals and humans. We can think, we can choose, but what is the use of this? We, as beings, need some sort of purpose. Faith in something higher, knowing, intrinsically knowing within yourself, that there's something more to this world, is the drive of society. And ironically enough, many books are devoted to such subjects.
I don't believe that the people in this society are oblivious to the hurt they face in the future. Beatty, Montag, Faber, and Clarisse all see this. Mildred is even fearful of the firemen which means that she does understand a portion of what is happening.
But Melissa, do you think Montag had thought of the possible consequences of reading the book to them before he did it? Or did he just hope that they would instantly accept it. I think if he was hoping that they would instantly accept it he was definitely being silly because even he didnt accept the books immediately. Thoughts?
Alex, i believe that Montag is decided to read to the ladies becuase he is so fed up with their way of life. Like with the women who's children hate her. He is so mad with the world. He needs to show people what is going on, but in a way that is safer for him and for Faber. Mildred told Montag to read the poem so that he would not continue to go on about how the books mean more than the ladies think.
Ah, I see. Thanks Elaine, Melissa, Katie. Well, I think that's definitely true, because I know I keep on saying this, but in this society, ignorance is bliss.
Oh thank you, Elaine - I was just a bit confused. :)
Why is there no love for children? The parents don't even "love" their kids, not to mention truly love them. Mrs. Bowles says that natural birth is just not worth the pain for the child. Where is that bond? Do they just reproduce, for the sake to keep humans going?
Montag wouldn't have read the books to the ladies if he had thought about the consequences of his actions first. The whole time he has the books out, Faber is telling him to stop and to put the book away because Faber is thinking about what might happen. He had an impulse to show the ladies the books, to show them that there was more.
Jack -- I believe Montag was so frustrated with the women and their ignorance and narrow-mindedness that he never even thought that there could be consequences. In a way, he read the poem to comfort and calm himself down.
melissa i think they do just have children to keep the human race going. did you see that one thing one of the ladies said about it? hold on i have to find it
I think that the only reason that the ladies have the kids is to totally just keep repopoulating the world. This lack of love and the bond that is missing is key to the society that these people are living in. This pain that Haley talks about is true for these people. These people are just totally selfish. In what other ways do we see this happening today? Do we see it today?
i think the kids aren't the problem. it is their mothers, who would be spending the whole day watching TV again as soon as they could, ignoring the child. therefore, the child is attracted to the TV because that is where there mom is so the cycle is continued.
In response to Melissa, I agree with Blake that even if you were a C-Section baby or even an adopted baby that your parents should still love you as much or even more than a baby with a natural birth. In the book however, I think that there is definitely a sense of reproducing just for the survival of the race. Just as in Montag and Mildred's relationship, there is absolutely no sense of love.
Michel brings up an interesting point. Children in this book are a chore, their parents dont care. Mrs. Bowels compares them to a load of laundry, "stuff laundry in and slam the lid". I think this might be relevant to our lives today. These kids run around and do what they will, and the parents dont care. Could this be thanks to their incessent t.v. watching?
I agree with Hayley and Drew about the mothers in the book not connecting their children from their births. The mothers did not experience the pain to bring a child into this world. But I also agree with Blake about many parents still loving their children regardless of their births. But in this society, the mothers make a point of not naturally having the baby just to save some pain. This is an absolutely selfish reason to have a C-Section.
ok so i cant find the quote but i think it is mrs. bowles that is talking and she says something about reproducing for the sake of the world pretty much
This is an off subject quote, but here it goes "He would be Motag-plus-Faber, fire plus water, and then one day, when everything had mixed and simmered in silence, there would be neither fire nor water, but wine." There is so much symbolism in this. What do you guys think?
Yeah my mother and I talk a lot. Personally, my first instinct when I get home is not to subject myself to more media. Quite frankly, by the time school's done, I don't even want to look at a computer.
Going to Tim's thoughts -- "sometimes they even look like you." That shows how self-centered these women and all society is. The only, or one of the only, things the mothers like in their children is how they look like themselves, and how that is pretty nice.
The conversation in the circle makes me believe that the future US has so much confidence and power over the rest of the world that we don't HAVE to even contemplate losing a war. We must be much more advanced than other countries.
No Beatty doesn't know about Faber because barely anyone knows Faber exists. I think that Beatty could kind of sense that something was going on with Montag because of how he started to stay away from the other firemen and also how the dog started to growl at him.
i think Beatty just found out about the books when he took the most recent one. it seems like Montag has been taking books aa while, but now is the first time he stayed home sick, which tipped off Beatty
Right when i come home i go and check my email and turn some music just to relax from the day. My parents are never home when i am home so i totally go to technology.
To answer your question, Mrs. Moritz, I go home and do homework. My family barely watches TV, but we are almost always on the computer. I could say that my mom and dad are on the computer working right now. My mom is not always home due to the fact that she is a flight attendent and that she needs to fly since that is her job. I sometimes have a conversation with my mom about how my day was or how her days were on her trip.. but otherwise, we usually just bicker for a few hours about some small thing...
Mrs. Moritz -- When I get home, I don't go directly to watch TV or turn on my computer. But I do very quickly. Some days my mom is home and others she is not. However, at least one of my parent are home when I get home from school. I don't have a sit-down talk with either of my parents very much. But we always talk here and there, when we eat, etc. :)
Similar to Elaine, my family is often online. My mom is working on papers, grading papers, or checking her email constantly. And my dad teaches mostly online classes, instead of classroom ones. Therefore, he works a lot on the computer and grades a lot of papers that are sent to him through the internet.
What would it be like if you went home and REALLY had an in-depth conversation with your parents. How would they react? Have you lost contact with them and they would freak out? Or would it be like any other day?
To go with Bryce's comment about jobs, I think that this US is so centered around government that many of their jobs are to be involved in the government. Also many machines may have taken over people's profession.
Everyday when i get home and if my mom is home i always go say hi to her, tell her about my day etc. But she usually is out doing something else when i get home so i either do my homework, go on the computer, or kinda rarely do something physical
I think that Montag being a fireman and a friend of Faber may have something to do with Faber being found out since Beatty has been watching Montag so closley.
Hailey -- I know I am not Tim or Brian ;) But, I think Faber is slowly coming out of the dark, but he is still trying to stay hidden from the public. However, he is finally taking action, with the encouragement of Montag.
To go along with Moritz's highly enlightened inquiry, I have one: As a teenage society, don't we discourage high valuation of parents? For instance, we have phrases such as "momma's boy" and etc., why? What is our issue with parental intimacy?
My parents would totally act normal if i wanted to have an in depth conversation with them. They always tell me that i can talk to them about anything i want. Recently ive been talking to my dad alot more about the election and how it will affect our family and our country
that would actually be fairly normal for me. i mean i dont go home and have in depth conversations with my mom but every once in a while i do. i did that yesterday actually.
this is sort of off topic but mrs. bowles says she has her kids at school 9 out of 10 days... are the weeks longer in this society or is she just saying they are only home for one day?
If I had an in-depth converstaion with my parents... There would probably be blood shed on all sides of our family. I think that I have lost a real connection with my parents due to some problem going on. They usually don't freak out, but they don't really understand.. but that is just my perspective of things. My parents and sister also have a different thought about what happens. My conversation with my parents would be different every time... but they would be about the same things over and over again.
Why is it do you guys think that Montag is the only one who seems to be really affected by the books?? Beatty says that every fireman goes throught the curious stage, but why is Montag stuck in it? Is their something to do with Clarrisse?
Mrs. Moritz -- I do have an in-depth conversation sometimes with my parents, but rarely. It would be a bit strange because they are usually the ones who start it. I may have lost a bit of a connection with them, but I think it is mainly because I am a teenager and my hormones are all over the place ;) (yes, I admit it). My parent annoy me every other minute in my view these days. ;)
I think the conversation between Mildred and her friends about politics is very interesting. When they talk about the candidates, the best looking person wins. It doesn’t matter if one has better policies or plans, but whoever is the most attractive. Do you think we do that today? Do people really care about morals or policies?
I think that the reason we make fun of parental intimacy is because we would like to think of ourselves as independent. Who doesn't want to be considered mature?
Emerald, I think this soceities whole interpretaion of time is different than ours. Because she says she tolerates them 3 days out of a month, so the only way this can all work out is that their time is different
Mrs. Moritz- Right after school i go home and get on the computer or do homework. The computer that i work on is in the same office as my dad's becuase he owns his own buisness. I my mom comes into the study and we talk about if anything happened that was exciting or whatnot during the day and since both of my brothers are at college, they know more about what is going on with me more than ever, so we talk during dinner just about my life.
Melissa- I agree with you about Faber. I think that Beatty might just do something at Montag's house, think he solved the problem and back off, or keep on disturbing Montag.
I agree with you Alex about how machines are taking over people's profession and that is the cause of the loss of jobs... So, than to kind of get off topic, what do you guys think about the society today and how machines are 'taking over the world'? And the falling of the stock market due to the loss of jobs... thoughts?
Cali -- By now, I believe that Beatty was a tricking Montag a bit. Maybe firemen go through this stage, but most probably don't bring a book home. Plus, Beatty was affected by books, as he tells us. We see that he knows bunches of quotes, which he tells many to Montag. I believe that Beatty was like Montag, but "realized" that happiness is more important and that it was right to burn books.
Elaine, I actually think machines, overall, are creating more jobs than they're taking away. I do have a question that I believe is at the heart of this book and the modern debate. What, really, is so wrong with machines?
Once again, off topic, but did you guys see the connection between MAcbeth and this book?? THe whole time when the firmen are playing poker, Montag keeps on washing his hands, and feels like they're 'gloved in blood.' Just was proud of myself for realizing it. HAHA
To go along with Elaine's comment, that is totally corredt. In class, Mrs. Moritz has been telling us why we need to be good thinkers because when we are adults, If we have a plain job, it can be done just as well or better by a computer.
To go along with the inner circle discussion, I think that Beatty is just trying to make Montag feel like an idiot for reading and disobeying. He wants to show his superiority.
Melissa you bring up a great point. Beatty knows so many quotes and understands so many authors. Is he too at this stage where he had to overcome his feelings of curisoity, or was that just a trip in order to catch Montag? listen to what Haley and everyone is saying. Do you agree/disagree?
I agree with Brian how an in-depth conversation with our parents is not an everyday thing. I also agree with Alex's train of thought how he says that no one doesn't want to be considered mature. We, as teenagers, all want to be independent and be free... because we think we are better than some people... such as our parents. thoughts?
Mrs. Moritz -- I don't think the children in Bradbury's society even ever had a thought and wonderment like that. They really don't have much of a connection at all with their parents. Kids probably only think of their parents as who conceived them and where they came from. They don't think much about how big and important of a connection that is.
mrs. moritz-thats hard to answer. i would say probably once you star being allowed to go places without your parents. then your parents dont know about your whole life and they start to badger you about it and it gets annoying. then it goes from 'my parents are so cool i love them' to 'my parents are so annoying and embarrasing i hate it'
Mrs. Moritz- I think that many children lose that mentality when they feel as if they know more than their parents do, which in many cases in when you are a teenager.
To answer your question Mrs. Moritz, I never really connected to my parents to think.. well, my dad is my hero or my mom is my hero. I thought that everyone had a good and bad side and you can consider one or both. I thought of the both sides of my family and people around me, which makes me more precautious about friends...
I disagree with Brian. i mena, maybe for most epople that could be true, but for some, once you get to the teenage stage, you dad is more of an annoying punisher than a hero. I have to say this is true for me to an extent, and its not because my father did anything different, but because his role in my life as I get older changes.
Elain, i think that what you are putting out there is partially true and partially not true. yes we want to feel like we are mature and not over powered, but as we are growing, we find out that our parents do know a whole lot, they just have an annoying way of showing it sometimes. I feel that we want to think freely, but there is still a level of respect for our older peers.
I think that Beatty could possibly be compared to the witches in Macbeth. Beatty is kinda telling Montag his "destiny" that he will be curious about the books for a while but then forget about it. And in Macbeth the witches fortell Macbeth's future. But the main difference between the two stories is that Macbeth wants the predictions to come true and Montag really wants to resist Beattys prediction.
i think Beatty set the dog on Montag already. i think he was so nonchalant about getting the note of the adress because he had already gotten one or more from different people, and he was waiting until all three people who heard the poem called in.maybe the hound is already at Montag's house, and will kill him unless he burns his own house. Beatty has trapped him.
I think that Montag won't do anything. He is probably still in shock about getting caught. Mildred might freak out and try to blame the whole thing on Montag.
THe mechanical hound. We're trying to decide why it's not in the station. If it's hunting Montag or Something, and if it is, then what will Montag do if it attacks him.
I want to bring up a different quote again. The one on page...103 towards the top about the fire and water, and then wine. I think it's completely symbolic. What are your thoughts?
So you don't think Montag might run? So, to continue your thought Alex, if Mildred does blame Montag for starting the whole mess, do you think that she will try to escape to get out of the situation.
Hey Moritz! I missed this discussion on Friday, but I am responding to it now on Saturday. From Cali's question on Faber, he was kept in the dark because he didn't show his unique thinking about knowledge to the public like Clarisse had. He was a coward because he was afraid what would happen to him if his ideas were heard out. He needed a bit of encouragement and a group of people like him to back his ideas up. In response to Elaine's question, I believe that the two ladies actually were part of the way that Beaty found out about the books. Clarisse wouldn't do that because she values her viewing screens and her "family" and wouldn't burn her own house down and inform the firehouse about it because they would think she was part of this since she is complaining about books in her own house. Mrs. Bowle and Mrs. Phelps may have told the firehouse about the books in Mildred's house. In response to Jack's question on if Montag knew the consequences of reading the poem out loud to the three women, I don't believe he thought of them. I totally agree with Tim because I think he acted on impulse and he didn't intend to think about what he was doing. He was so pissed off about Mrs. Bowles going on about her children, her husband, the war, and the parlor. He was upset she couldn't recognize the importance of knowledge, love, and thought in the world and only worried about TV "family" while comparing her kids to laundry that you just throw in the washer and close the lid. I agree with what most people have said so far in response to Melissa's question. The parents in Fahrenheit 451 have kids in order to reproduce. That's it. There is no love and the only thing that's good about this is the children sometimes look like the parents. It shows there is no love between the parents and the offspring because the offspring are sent to schools at a very young age and are not nurtured by the parents. The parents don't care enough to naturally have their kid. They believe C-section is a less painful method and are not willing to sacrificial no-pain in order to naturally have a child. What selfish parents! In response to your question Moritz, i am always picked up by my mom and so we always talk in the car. i always see her first before i use the computer, and in the car we have our interesting conversations about our days. I use the computer when I get home, where i turn on some music on, check my email on, and check my grades/do homework on. I don't have time to watch TV. In response to Hailey J's question, I once again agree with Tim that Beaty has programmed the mechanical dog and is watching Montag's thoughts and actions through the dog. He knows about Fabor through Montag because he has been watching Montag and knows he has been communicating with and visiting Fabor. In response to the in-depth thing, Moritz, I usually talk a lot with my parents about things that occurred in school and current events happening in the world. I actually find it pretty normal to have conversations with them, but in-depth conversations are less frequent than short conversations. In response to John's question, I think machines are actually threats to people's jobs, like Elaine said. You know, if people studied hard and got good jobs, computers wouldn't be able to do those jobs because they weren't so simple. Like Tim said, if people got simple jobs, the computers would easily be able to do these jobs because the computers are as capable, if not more capable than the people with these jobs. Moritz, I agree with Brian and Emerald on your "my dad is a hero" question. I think it is like the thing in court, "innocent until proven guily." I think my dad is always a hero as well as my mom until either of them has done something that is unforgivable to me, in my opinion. In response to some other comments, I see how knowledge can be a double edged sword. Beaty was using the knowledge in the book's he read in order to go against the idea that books are good. It is ironic that you would argue against something by using information from the thing you are arguing against...But anyway....This was a great in class discussion/liveblog and I am ready to discuss in the upcoming discussions we have in class.
121 comments:
How do you guys think that Faber has been able to keep hidden and in the dark for so long?
Well, I think that when you hide in the dark for such a long time, people just kind of ignore you after awhile... but they know you are there. So Montag knew that Faber was around, but he didn't know where he was until he called. thoughts?
Faber has been able to stay hidden because he doesn't own books and he doesn't risk anything.
I think Montag was trying to convince Mildred and her friends that words can sound good even when they are not coming out of a TV. I agree with Paige that i thought their reaction was very interesting as well. I would have thought they would have been very shocked but they kinda act almost nonchalant about it. I also like Paige's connection to the book being like a gun in todays society. When someone pulls out a gun everyone would be really shocked in todays society.
I think Faber has stayed hidden for so long because he was a coward, as he called himself, and tried to remain hidden and discreet. Faber didn't call any attention to himself. Until now, he hasn't acted upon all his thoughts and how much he hates this established society.
But he does own books, and he is challenging the system all the time.
I think that by the books being burned and his job going down the tubes, he has nothing to live for in his mind. Faber is an important character and for him to stay in the dark for so long means something to this society. He, like many others could be thinking these thoughts like Clarisse is but is too afraid to revolt without the help of others.
Brian, than how does Faber start reading to Montag to calm Montag down when Montag was walking home? Faber was reading to him... so Faber does have to have books.
i am surprised the ladies didn't have more of a reaction upon seeing the book. They are just kind of like oh a book, is that for your job? i assumed they would be freaking out and being like omg we have to report you!
He hasn't siad anything to anyone and probably hasn't been outside for a very long time. He is a rebel, but he is more of a coward. Most of the other rebels are like this too, which is why their ideas don't really get much interest
sorry that didnt really have much to do with what we were talking about i was just responding to the first question in the circle...
Elaine, he reads the Bible Montag gives him.
I agree with Emerald about what she said on the reaction of the ladies and the book that Montag showed them. Do you think the ladies reported him because at the end, they arrive at Montag's house to burn his house... thoughts?
Who do you agree with Alex, and about what? ;)
What was the significance about Dover Beach, the poem that Montag had read to the ladies? Why did Bradbury choose this poem?
Well, the thing with these women, is that as you can see by what they are talking about, and the way they speak of their husbands, and all, they must not care too much about anything. So, Emerald, I just don't think anything bothers them a lot.
I think that Montag is just so furious about Mildred and her friends' ignorance toward books that he just has to read the to them
thats interesting elaine i didn't think about that. I actually thought it might have been milodred.
What is everyone's thoughts on what Jillian just said.
I agree with you Alex, but than what do you think about when Mildred tells Montag to read the poem to tell the ladies how silly it is?
Uh, sorry I didn't hear Jillian. HA, does someone want to enlighten me?
Just an off-topic wonder, who is crastrelli? :)
Montag was so irritated about how shallow the ladies were. He had to try to show them that there was more, only to end up failing and getting his house burnt.
Montag wants to explain to the women the beauty of books, but they didn't understand. Later Faber tells him to calm down beacause he was one of them. Maontag wanted it wold to be different so he went looking for something different. The women are conetent with their mediocre lives. Faber explains that not everyone wants change.
crastrelli is Cali, Melissa
mildreds friends are just as selfish as she is. the womenm doesn't even love her kids it's sad. i don't think mthat wil ever happen in our generation. i would feel guilty for not loving my kids. i could never imagine.
Jillian's little quote is absolutely contrary to truth. Faith is the basis of belief. Faith is a human virtue that is ultimately one of the separating factors between animals and humans. We can think, we can choose, but what is the use of this? We, as beings, need some sort of purpose. Faith in something higher, knowing, intrinsically knowing within yourself, that there's something more to this world, is the drive of society. And ironically enough, many books are devoted to such subjects.
I don't believe that the people in this society are oblivious to the hurt they face in the future. Beatty, Montag, Faber, and Clarisse all see this. Mildred is even fearful of the firemen which means that she does understand a portion of what is happening.
But Melissa, do you think Montag had thought of the possible consequences of reading the book to them before he did it? Or did he just hope that they would instantly accept it. I think if he was hoping that they would instantly accept it he was definitely being silly because even he didnt accept the books immediately. Thoughts?
Alex, i believe that Montag is decided to read to the ladies becuase he is so fed up with their way of life. Like with the women who's children hate her. He is so mad with the world. He needs to show people what is going on, but in a way that is safer for him and for Faber. Mildred told Montag to read the poem so that he would not continue to go on about how the books mean more than the ladies think.
Yay for late thoughts...
Ah, I see. Thanks Elaine, Melissa, Katie. Well, I think that's definitely true, because I know I keep on saying this, but in this society, ignorance is bliss.
Oh thank you, Elaine - I was just a bit confused. :)
Why is there no love for children? The parents don't even "love" their kids, not to mention truly love them. Mrs. Bowles says that natural birth is just not worth the pain for the child. Where is that bond? Do they just reproduce, for the sake to keep humans going?
Montag wouldn't have read the books to the ladies if he had thought about the consequences of his actions first. The whole time he has the books out, Faber is telling him to stop and to put the book away because Faber is thinking about what might happen. He had an impulse to show the ladies the books, to show them that there was more.
I agree with you Alex, but Mildred is not fearful of Montag, who is a fireman... thoughts?
Awesome rant, Moritz.
Jack -- I believe Montag was so frustrated with the women and their ignorance and narrow-mindedness that he never even thought that there could be consequences. In a way, he read the poem to comfort and calm himself down.
melissa i think they do just have children to keep the human race going. did you see that one thing one of the ladies said about it? hold on i have to find it
I think that the only reason that the ladies have the kids is to totally just keep repopoulating the world. This lack of love and the bond that is missing is key to the society that these people are living in. This pain that Haley talks about is true for these people. These people are just totally selfish. In what other ways do we see this happening today? Do we see it today?
One of Mildred's friends said "sometimes they even look like you." This is an example of how shallow they are towards their children.
i think the kids aren't the problem. it is their mothers, who would be spending the whole day watching TV again as soon as they could, ignoring the child. therefore, the child is attracted to the TV because that is where there mom is so the cycle is continued.
Wait, so Hailey, are you saying the only reason these ladies have babies is to further the society? Is the citizenry really that much for the system?
In response to Melissa, I agree with Blake that even if you were a C-Section baby or even an adopted baby that your parents should still love you as much or even more than a baby with a natural birth. In the book however, I think that there is definitely a sense of reproducing just for the survival of the race. Just as in Montag and Mildred's relationship, there is absolutely no sense of love.
I would like to pose a new question: How long did you think Beatty knew about Montag and the books? Does he know about Fabor?
Michel brings up an interesting point. Children in this book are a chore, their parents dont care. Mrs. Bowels compares them to a load of laundry, "stuff laundry in and slam the lid". I think this might be relevant to our lives today. These kids run around and do what they will, and the parents dont care. Could this be thanks to their incessent t.v. watching?
I agree with Hayley and Drew about the mothers in the book not connecting their children from their births. The mothers did not experience the pain to bring a child into this world. But I also agree with Blake about many parents still loving their children regardless of their births. But in this society, the mothers make a point of not naturally having the baby just to save some pain. This is an absolutely selfish reason to have a C-Section.
ok so i cant find the quote but i think it is mrs. bowles that is talking and she says something about reproducing for the sake of the world pretty much
How many of you go home and watch tv or get on the computer? Are your mom's home? Do you have a conversation with them before you do that activity?
This is an off subject quote, but here it goes "He would be Motag-plus-Faber, fire plus water, and then one day, when everything had mixed and simmered in silence, there would be neither fire nor water, but wine."
There is so much symbolism in this. What do you guys think?
Yeah my mother and I talk a lot. Personally, my first instinct when I get home is not to subject myself to more media. Quite frankly, by the time school's done, I don't even want to look at a computer.
Going to Tim's thoughts -- "sometimes they even look like you." That shows how self-centered these women and all society is. The only, or one of the only, things the mothers like in their children is how they look like themselves, and how that is pretty nice.
The conversation in the circle makes me believe that the future US has so much confidence and power over the rest of the world that we don't HAVE to even contemplate losing a war. We must be much more advanced than other countries.
No Beatty doesn't know about Faber because barely anyone knows Faber exists. I think that Beatty could kind of sense that something was going on with Montag because of how he started to stay away from the other firemen and also how the dog started to growl at him.
i think Beatty just found out about the books when he took the most recent one. it seems like Montag has been taking books aa while, but now is the first time he stayed home sick, which tipped off Beatty
Mrs. Moritz;
I can't watch TV on the weekdays, unless my homework is done, and my parents say so:( so I would say, I talk to my mom before I do that.
my mom is usually home. it depends if i talk to her though, one on how i am feeling and two, whether or not she picks me up from school
Right when i come home i go and check my email and turn some music just to relax from the day. My parents are never home when i am home so i totally go to technology.
in one part of the book pg 9o something
it says montag went to the bank and the bank tellers were robotic what is up with that
To answer your question, Mrs. Moritz, I go home and do homework. My family barely watches TV, but we are almost always on the computer. I could say that my mom and dad are on the computer working right now. My mom is not always home due to the fact that she is a flight attendent and that she needs to fly since that is her job. I sometimes have a conversation with my mom about how my day was or how her days were on her trip.. but otherwise, we usually just bicker for a few hours about some small thing...
Mrs. Moritz -- When I get home, I don't go directly to watch TV or turn on my computer. But I do very quickly. Some days my mom is home and others she is not. However, at least one of my parent are home when I get home from school. I don't have a sit-down talk with either of my parents very much. But we always talk here and there, when we eat, etc. :)
So Tim and Brian, you think that Faber is still in the dark? Will he be found? What do u all think?
why that question mrs. moritz?
Similar to Elaine, my family is often online. My mom is working on papers, grading papers, or checking her email constantly. And my dad teaches mostly online classes, instead of classroom ones. Therefore, he works a lot on the computer and grades a lot of papers that are sent to him through the internet.
What would it be like if you went home and REALLY had an in-depth conversation with your parents. How would they react? Have you lost contact with them and they would freak out? Or would it be like any other day?
To go with Bryce's comment about jobs, I think that this US is so centered around government that many of their jobs are to be involved in the government. Also many machines may have taken over people's profession.
Everyday when i get home and if my mom is home i always go say hi to her, tell her about my day etc. But she usually is out doing something else when i get home so i either do my homework, go on the computer, or kinda rarely do something physical
I think that Montag being a fireman and a friend of Faber may have something to do with Faber being found out since Beatty has been watching Montag so closley.
there don't have to be that many jobs because robots are doing a lot of it.
Hailey -- I know I am not Tim or Brian ;) But, I think Faber is slowly coming out of the dark, but he is still trying to stay hidden from the public. However, he is finally taking action, with the encouragement of Montag.
To go along with Moritz's highly enlightened inquiry, I have one: As a teenage society, don't we discourage high valuation of parents? For instance, we have phrases such as "momma's boy" and etc., why? What is our issue with parental intimacy?
if i wwent home and had a conversation like that with my parents, they wouldn't freak out, but it isn't an everyday thing either.
My parents would totally act normal if i wanted to have an in depth conversation with them. They always tell me that i can talk to them about anything i want. Recently ive been talking to my dad alot more about the election and how it will affect our family and our country
that would actually be fairly normal for me. i mean i dont go home and have in depth conversations with my mom but every once in a while i do. i did that yesterday actually.
this is sort of off topic but mrs. bowles says she has her kids at school 9 out of 10 days... are the weeks longer in this society or is she just saying they are only home for one day?
If I had an in-depth converstaion with my parents... There would probably be blood shed on all sides of our family. I think that I have lost a real connection with my parents due to some problem going on. They usually don't freak out, but they don't really understand.. but that is just my perspective of things. My parents and sister also have a different thought about what happens. My conversation with my parents would be different every time... but they would be about the same things over and over again.
Why is it do you guys think that Montag is the only one who seems to be really affected by the books?? Beatty says that every fireman goes throught the curious stage, but why is Montag stuck in it? Is their something to do with Clarrisse?
Mrs. Moritz -- I do have an in-depth conversation sometimes with my parents, but rarely. It would be a bit strange because they are usually the ones who start it. I may have lost a bit of a connection with them, but I think it is mainly because I am a teenager and my hormones are all over the place ;) (yes, I admit it). My parent annoy me every other minute in my view these days. ;)
I think the conversation between Mildred and her friends about politics is very interesting. When they talk about the candidates, the best looking person wins. It doesn’t matter if one has better policies or plans, but whoever is the most attractive. Do you think we do that today? Do people really care about morals or policies?
I think that the reason we make fun of parental intimacy is because we would like to think of ourselves as independent. Who doesn't want to be considered mature?
there don't have to be that many jobs because robots are doing a lot of it.
Emerald, I think this soceities whole interpretaion of time is different than ours. Because she says she tolerates them 3 days out of a month, so the only way this can all work out is that their time is different
Mrs. Moritz- Right after school i go home and get on the computer or do homework. The computer that i work on is in the same office as my dad's becuase he owns his own buisness. I my mom comes into the study and we talk about if anything happened that was exciting or whatnot during the day and since both of my brothers are at college, they know more about what is going on with me more than ever, so we talk during dinner just about my life.
Melissa- I agree with you about Faber. I think that Beatty might just do something at Montag's house, think he solved the problem and back off, or keep on disturbing Montag.
I agree with you Alex about how machines are taking over people's profession and that is the cause of the loss of jobs... So, than to kind of get off topic, what do you guys think about the society today and how machines are 'taking over the world'? And the falling of the stock market due to the loss of jobs... thoughts?
Cali -- By now, I believe that Beatty was a tricking Montag a bit. Maybe firemen go through this stage, but most probably don't bring a book home. Plus, Beatty was affected by books, as he tells us. We see that he knows bunches of quotes, which he tells many to Montag. I believe that Beatty was like Montag, but "realized" that happiness is more important and that it was right to burn books.
when the firemen light the houses on fire, the heat cracks the protective plastic and they do burn to the ground.
Elaine, I actually think machines, overall, are creating more jobs than they're taking away. I do have a question that I believe is at the heart of this book and the modern debate. What, really, is so wrong with machines?
Just wondering--at what point do children lose that "My dad is a hero" wonderment of parents.
Once again, off topic, but did you guys see the connection between MAcbeth and this book?? THe whole time when the firmen are playing poker, Montag keeps on washing his hands, and feels like they're 'gloved in blood.' Just was proud of myself for realizing it. HAHA
To go along with Elaine's comment, that is totally corredt. In class, Mrs. Moritz has been telling us why we need to be good thinkers because when we are adults, If we have a plain job, it can be done just as well or better by a computer.
To go along with the inner circle discussion, I think that Beatty is just trying to make Montag feel like an idiot for reading and disobeying. He wants to show his superiority.
Melissa you bring up a great point. Beatty knows so many quotes and understands so many authors. Is he too at this stage where he had to overcome his feelings of curisoity, or was that just a trip in order to catch Montag? listen to what Haley and everyone is saying. Do you agree/disagree?
I agree with Brian how an in-depth conversation with our parents is not an everyday thing. I also agree with Alex's train of thought how he says that no one doesn't want to be considered mature. We, as teenagers, all want to be independent and be free... because we think we are better than some people... such as our parents. thoughts?
Mrs. Moritz, kids don't stopp thinking that unless they find out that their frather did or is doing something bad.
i don't normally have in-depth conversations with my parental units
we are all to busy and it's just not something we do
i don't normally have in-depth conversations with my parental units
we are all to busy and it's just not something we do
Mrs. Moritz -- I don't think the children in Bradbury's society even ever had a thought and wonderment like that. They really don't have much of a connection at all with their parents. Kids probably only think of their parents as who conceived them and where they came from. They don't think much about how big and important of a connection that is.
Oh Brian--I'm glad to hear that.
mrs. moritz-thats hard to answer. i would say probably once you star being allowed to go places without your parents. then your parents dont know about your whole life and they start to badger you about it and it gets annoying. then it goes from 'my parents are so cool i love them' to 'my parents are so annoying and embarrasing i hate it'
Mrs. Moritz- I think that many children lose that mentality when they feel as if they know more than their parents do, which in many cases in when you are a teenager.
To answer your question Mrs. Moritz, I never really connected to my parents to think.. well, my dad is my hero or my mom is my hero. I thought that everyone had a good and bad side and you can consider one or both. I thought of the both sides of my family and people around me, which makes me more precautious about friends...
i think Beatty could be a great dictator. he can speak very well. just talking he can almost always convince people to his point of view.
I disagree with Brian. i mena, maybe for most epople that could be true, but for some, once you get to the teenage stage, you dad is more of an annoying punisher than a hero. I have to say this is true for me to an extent, and its not because my father did anything different, but because his role in my life as I get older changes.
i agree with brian about the hero thing
Cali -- I thought of that exact same connection with Macbeth!! It was VERY similar.
Hailey, I believed I missed on that whole topic, as they have moved on now. Could you please tell me what they said? :)
I think Beatty is a kind of anti-book propaganda. Because he knows so much, his knowledge is a double-egged sword.
Elain, i think that what you are putting out there is partially true and partially not true. yes we want to feel like we are mature and not over powered, but as we are growing, we find out that our parents do know a whole lot, they just have an annoying way of showing it sometimes. I feel that we want to think freely, but there is still a level of respect for our older peers.
sorry Elaine i forgot the e on your name! :)
I think that Beatty could possibly be compared to the witches in Macbeth. Beatty is kinda telling Montag his "destiny" that he will be curious about the books for a while but then forget about it. And in Macbeth the witches fortell Macbeth's future. But the main difference between the two stories is that Macbeth wants the predictions to come true and Montag really wants to resist Beattys prediction.
It's okay Hailey.
can someone please explain this whole dog thing to me? why are we kicking and killing a dog??
i think Beatty set the dog on Montag already. i think he was so nonchalant about getting the note of the adress because he had already gotten one or more from different people, and he was waiting until all three people who heard the poem called in.maybe the hound is already at Montag's house, and will kill him unless he burns his own house. Beatty has trapped him.
Katie -- Yes, I definitely agree with the double-EDGED (not egged ;)) sword that our sub mentioned yesterday.
I think that Montag won't do anything. He is probably still in shock about getting caught. Mildred might freak out and try to blame the whole thing on Montag.
THe mechanical hound. We're trying to decide why it's not in the station. If it's hunting Montag or Something, and if it is, then what will Montag do if it attacks him.
I want to bring up a different quote again. The one on page...103 towards the top about the fire and water, and then wine. I think it's completely symbolic. What are your thoughts?
ha ha Melissa.
oh it's not
I think Beatty sent the hound to attack Montag. When he and Mildred hear that weird noise outside, I think it’s the mechanical hound.
what do you mean hahaq melissa
I believe the hound is at Montag's house, or around there, in case he does anything to stop burning his house.
So you don't think Montag might run? So, to continue your thought Alex, if Mildred does blame Montag for starting the whole mess, do you think that she will try to escape to get out of the situation.
Hey Moritz! I missed this discussion on Friday, but I am responding to it now on Saturday. From Cali's question on Faber, he was kept in the dark because he didn't show his unique thinking about knowledge to the public like Clarisse had. He was a coward because he was afraid what would happen to him if his ideas were heard out. He needed a bit of encouragement and a group of people like him to back his ideas up. In response to Elaine's question, I believe that the two ladies actually were part of the way that Beaty found out about the books. Clarisse wouldn't do that because she values her viewing screens and her "family" and wouldn't burn her own house down and inform the firehouse about it because they would think she was part of this since she is complaining about books in her own house. Mrs. Bowle and Mrs. Phelps may have told the firehouse about the books in Mildred's house. In response to Jack's question on if Montag knew the consequences of reading the poem out loud to the three women, I don't believe he thought of them. I totally agree with Tim because I think he acted on impulse and he didn't intend to think about what he was doing. He was so pissed off about Mrs. Bowles going on about her children, her husband, the war, and the parlor. He was upset she couldn't recognize the importance of knowledge, love, and thought in the world and only worried about TV "family" while comparing her kids to laundry that you just throw in the washer and close the lid. I agree with what most people have said so far in response to Melissa's question. The parents in Fahrenheit 451 have kids in order to reproduce. That's it. There is no love and the only thing that's good about this is the children sometimes look like the parents. It shows there is no love between the parents and the offspring because the offspring are sent to schools at a very young age and are not nurtured by the parents. The parents don't care enough to naturally have their kid. They believe C-section is a less painful method and are not willing to sacrificial no-pain in order to naturally have a child. What selfish parents! In response to your question Moritz, i am always picked up by my mom and so we always talk in the car. i always see her first before i use the computer, and in the car we have our interesting conversations about our days. I use the computer when I get home, where i turn on some music on, check my email on, and check my grades/do homework on. I don't have time to watch TV. In response to Hailey J's question, I once again agree with Tim that Beaty has programmed the mechanical dog and is watching Montag's thoughts and actions through the dog. He knows about Fabor through Montag because he has been watching Montag and knows he has been communicating with and visiting Fabor. In response to the in-depth thing, Moritz, I usually talk a lot with my parents about things that occurred in school and current events happening in the world. I actually find it pretty normal to have conversations with them, but in-depth conversations are less frequent than short conversations. In response to John's question, I think machines are actually threats to people's jobs, like Elaine said. You know, if people studied hard and got good jobs, computers wouldn't be able to do those jobs because they weren't so simple. Like Tim said, if people got simple jobs, the computers would easily be able to do these jobs because the computers are as capable, if not more capable than the people with these jobs. Moritz, I agree with Brian and Emerald on your "my dad is a hero" question. I think it is like the thing in court, "innocent until proven guily." I think my dad is always a hero as well as my mom until either of them has done something that is unforgivable to me, in my opinion. In response to some other comments, I see how knowledge can be a double edged sword. Beaty was using the knowledge in the book's he read in order to go against the idea that books are good. It is ironic that you would argue against something by using information from the thing you are arguing against...But anyway....This was a great in class discussion/liveblog and I am ready to discuss in the upcoming discussions we have in class.
Post a Comment